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Microstock Photography Forum - General => Off Topic => Topic started by: KnowYourOnions on June 27, 2015, 04:41
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Greece debt crisis: Tsipras announces bailout referendum
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839)
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I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they cant afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.
(http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/485545/485545,1317033330,1/stock-photo-ancient-greek-warrior-defies-fantasy-beetle-like-tank-metaphor-for-greek-debt-crisis-and-pressure-85374616.jpg)
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It's a terrible situation and as I'm just about to retire there I don't relish any of the possible outcomes. If Greeks "reject austerity" they will get a big dose of additional austerity from dropping out of the euro-zone and maybe eventually the EU itself, if they bow to the creditors then there is likely to be a decade more of economic contraction.
Joining the euro is the worst thing that has happened to Greece for a long time, maybe even since the end of the civil war.
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I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they cant afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.
I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
and it was even worst few years ago (even Greece was already in crisis, wages were on pair with Germany, France or UK)
Governments are chosen by the people, and those people wanted to live luxurious much above their standards, they choose politicians who are promising them higher wages or not lowering wages... and then, when it comes to paying dept, they suddenly became poor.
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There are many people going hungry in Greece. Having a high average wage or pension doesn't do you much good if you don't have a job, or haven't actually received that paycheck or pension for months or even years. I know people who have lost everything over there.
I would also posit that the poorest countries in the EU are net beneficiaries in the EU's account books, so I am not convinced it is costing their tax payers anything. It would mostly be from Germany, and frankly it's their turn to pay up, given all the cash they received to aid rebuilding after the second world war from countries who's own populations were still on rations (in fact fro longer than the German people).
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I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they cant afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.
I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
and it was even worst few years ago (even Greece was already in crisis, wages were on pair with Germany, France or UK)
Governments are chosen by the people, and those people wanted to live luxurious much above their standards, they choose politicians who are promising them higher wages or not lowering wages... and then, when it comes to paying dept, they suddenly became poor.
Wage levels don't necessarily reflect poverty. The poverty of trying to live in a flat in Athens, with hire-purchase debts owing on your car, furniture and white goods after losing your job is quite different from the poverty of being in a village, having a donkey, a stream with a stone for the washing, and a vegetable plot with onions, eggplants and tomatoes.
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I could not disagree more and don't feel sorry for Greece. The government cooked the books and practically everyone dodges taxes. They all got themselves in this hole. They've been bailed out with our tax money 89 billion. It has to come at a cost. They can leave if they want . I doubt it will make things better for them
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Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.
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It is a fact that many people on governement jobs and those that can retire in their mid fifties are getting incomes and pensions that are much higher than here in Germany and certainly much, much higher than many european countries.
Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasnīt gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.
The Greek governement refuses to cut their enormous military spending. Seriously, what are they expecting - world war three? A turkish invasion?? They could easily spend that money on their own citizens.
The number of people in Greece who work for black money and never pay their taxes is just mind booggling. I have family and friends in Greece and for years I have been in arguments why they donīt show any solidarity with their own country and fully pay their taxes. They genuinly think it is "clever" to make other people, especially other Europeans pay for them. Iīve even met people who said right into my face that "The Germans like to work until they are seventy, the Greeks are masters of enjoying life, so the Germans should pay", They considered it the natural order of things, again pointing to the amazingly superior and clever greek way of life. And I have been running into this attitude for many years, long before Greece even joined the euro.
The whole culture has to change, people have to show solidarity with their own country. And to expect much smaller and much poorer EU countries to pay for their lifestyle is just shameless.
Of course there are also good and honest and hard working people in Greece, but if you look at the amount of tax evasion, corruption and bribery it is clear that it is not just the superrich that are doing the damage, a huge part of the population is playing the "clever game" too.
The country has huge potential and greeks are very flexible business people. But they need to look at themselves first and take responsibility instead of playing the blame game and always looking for outsiders.
So many countries in Europe are poor, but you donīt see them staging all kinds of hysterical public drama. They genuinly try to solve their own problems and seek strength from inside their own community.
My tax money shoud go to countries that really are using it to improve themselves. Iīd rather we spend more on them.
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Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.
so just keep pumping money into a bottomless pit and let Greece run amok with our money? If Greece defaults no one gets rich. A coroner makes money on someone's death. Its just business.
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Excellent post Jasmine
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Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasnīt gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.
Not really refused!
According to Swiss legislation, banks are NOT obligated to provide information on depositors, unless they have been prosecuted for money laundering. This makes it prohibitive for the Greek authorities to substantiate cases of suspected tax evasion.
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/ (http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/)
ATHENS, April 28 (Xinhua) -- Greece's left-wing government promoted a deal with Switzerland in the framework of a wider campaign to nab tax evaders during talks with Swiss officials here on Tuesday.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm)
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Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.
so just keep pumping money into a bottomless pit and let Greece run amok with our money? If Greece defaults no one gets rich. A coroner makes money on someone's death. Its just business.
Hey, I never said that. What I said was there there are different kinds of poverty, one is the sort of stable daily grind of living a tough life - which you just get on with - the other comes from thinking you've climbed the ladder to prosperity and suddenly having the ladder kicked out from under you.
Nobody knows what the best solution is to Greece. Maybe it's the long, slow grind of submitting to austerity inside a currency that you never should have been in, maybe it's better to get out of the currency and try to make do without anything from abroad. The tragedy is what happens to ordinary people who thought they had been elevated from the subsistence life and suddenly find that events beyond their control make life worse than they could imagine. People really are committing suicide because they have lost hope. It's not a financial game, it's real life. The educated kids who can get away are fleeing to the north to make a living, taking their skills with them (only four other people were liviing on my lane - two ancient ladies and two guys in their 30s, one of them was overjoyed because he got a job in Norway, so there are just three now, living in six old houses). One can only wonder how a "lazy Greek" would be able to keep up with the workload for an employee in Norway!!
Anyway, the argument isn't about "throwing more money" at Greece, it's about how to make the Greek economy grow so it can repay its debts. It was 120% of GDP in hock at the start of this, and after the pre-Syriza sucesses of austerity it ended up 180% of GDP in hock. How? Simply because the debt shrank very marginally while the economy collapsed at about the same rate and on the same scale as America in the Great Depression. Even the IMF admits that the whole programme it was behind was disastrously wrong - but it wants more of the same because it can't think of any alternative.
In the absence of a plan for growth, squeezing more money out of Greece will just lead to further economic contraction and make the debt more unpayable. Until, eventually, the inevitable default happens.
It's also worth noting that the Greek primary surplus last year, if adjusted for cyclical factors, was not the 1% or 0% headline figure, but 5 or 6%, according to an OECD report last week, making Greece already by far the most profitable economy in the EU on that measure. I guess the new proposals would push the adjusted surplus up around 10%, but at a huge cost in poverty.
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It's also worth remembering that it's been suggested for a very long time that the introduction of the euro was designed to create just such a crisis as this, because by doing so it would lead to the next step on European integration, fiscal (tax) union and the creation of a federal state.
If that's true, then Greece has been sacrificed for the political ideal of a European superstate. Unfortunately, the other countries have decided to pursue national interests rather than moving forward to avoid what is happening now, so the sacrificial lamb has to go rather than enjoying a Biblical reprieve.
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Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasnīt gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.
Not really refused!
According to Swiss legislation, banks are NOT obligated to provide information on depositors, unless they have been prosecuted for money laundering. This makes it prohibitive for the Greek authorities to substantiate cases of suspected tax evasion.
[url]http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/[/url] ([url]http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/[/url])
ATHENS, April 28 (Xinhua) -- Greece's left-wing government promoted a deal with Switzerland in the framework of a wider campaign to nab tax evaders during talks with Swiss officials here on Tuesday.
[url]http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm[/url] ([url]http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm[/url])
This has nothing to do with handing out names and adresses. Switzerland provides billions of tax dollars to many european countries as a lump sum without naming any names.
This way the money for that year is actually correctly taxed, if the account holder does want to declare his hidden money some day, than for all these years are considered the taxes to be paid.
They did it for Germany some time in 2004 I think, for other countries even earlier I think. It was a comprise reached to allow the Swiss banks to stick to their strict privacy laws but for the other European countries to get their taxes.
At the same time many european countries also offered tax amnesties, to allow people to declare their money without going to jail. They still have to pay fines etc...at least here in Germany. The italians did it with lump sum of the total I think. They also do it on a regular basis to keep bringing the money back into Italy.
But nevertheless, this system has been in place for many years, Uk and Germany pay between 22-35% anonymous tax, and Switzerland offered this anonymous tax money several times to greece, but they always refused or wanted huge lump sums in advance etc....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
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Greece lived for very long a good life on borrowed money and now they are asked to pay it back.
The perfect examples are those expensive Olympic Games: borrowed money used to fuel a national ego, instead of being used to grow the economy.
Even now they belive themselves entitled to a living standard above the rest of eastern europe and they still expect others to pay for it. Unsustainable.
No surprise to see a high poverty % when measured against a high poverty threshold.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/0/04/At-risk-of-poverty_rate_and_threshold%2C_2012_%281%29_YB14_II.png
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
I doubt it. Europe has many,many countries and the success and improvements in many poor countries is amazing. The eurpean market and the euro make trading inside europe so much easier. I hated all those different currencies, it made our work so difficult. With the euro we could easily and buy and sell across the whole region.
The euro wonīt go away, europe wonīt fall apart.
Greece might leave and it is up to them if they want back in.
A hero is someone who achieves results. Not someone who loves public attention and then will just disappear when things get difficult.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.
So many other countries in Europe are really poor and they donīt have a booming tourist industry that allows many people without special skills to make some money by renting out rooms, working in many tourism related jobs etc...Tourism business offers many job opportunities. And these jobs canīt be taken away by robots.
Other countries have a much more difficult time to establish businesses and growth.
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....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.
But you need to remember who was running the place for almost all those year - it was the very people the Troika wish were running it now. The bunch who "lost" the Lagarde List of Greeks with big Swiss accounts, and then prosecuted and persecuted a journalist for daring to publish it after it was leaked to him. Syriza will probably turn out no better - I'm no fan of the hard left - but it's unfair to throw the sins of their opponents in their faces.
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....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.
But you need to remember who was running the place for almost all those year - it was the very people the Troika wish were running it now. The bunch who "lost" the Lagarde List of Greeks with big Swiss accounts, and then prosecuted and persecuted a journalist for daring to publish it after it was leaked to him. Syriza will probably turn out no better - I'm no fan of the hard left - but it's unfair to throw the sins of their opponents in their faces.
Syriza is still not hard left - but they starting to be... these days ...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.
So many other countries in Europe are really poor
What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.
You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.
You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.
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.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker players - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.
You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker player - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...
I said that your guy is a gambler who cowardly hides behind a referendum.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.
You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker player - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...
I said that your guy is a gambler who cowardly hides behind a referendum.
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..yes - he is a good poker player - we agree ...
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Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.
Please borrow me several thousands dollars.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.
So many other countries in Europe are really poor
What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?
If something happened that abruptly made 30% of people redundant I doubt you would hear people here blaming "outside" forces all day. Or consider a "conspiracy" that others are intentionally destroying your country? Why would other European countries want to do that?
They would get their act together, blame themselves (overly and constantly, the way the Germans always do) and find a way to pull themselves out by their hairs. If billions of euros were taken out of banks every day, there would immediatly be governement restrictions and capital control. If people donīt pay taxes, they go to jail,even if they are superrich. The US follows their citizens all across the globe for their tax money.
You wouldnīt allow people to retire in their mid fifities, certainly not when there is a national crisis. Spending by institutions and governements would immediately be lowered.
And very likely a large part of the population would emmigrate like they did after the war, and send money home.
Yes, people would suffer, very badly.
But there is strong community solidarity here and definetly paying taxes is not considered a hobby.
When you are in Greece try to get receipts every time you pay for something. Observe if jobs are handed out to people who are capable or the boss cousin.
Germany has corruption, all countries do, but Greece is a different level. It reminds me of the Middle East, where bribery and corruption are also considered a natural part of society. In my cousins health insurance she is also covered for "little envelopes", i.e. the money you slip the doctors and nurses to get better and timely treatment. They donīt even notice how strange this is, it is just part of the culture.
So seriously, what do you want the rest of Europe to do?
Should money just be handed over forever without results?
Is that fair to the other countries? They have to agree on the package, this is not a German decision as I keep hearing from Tsirpas. He has to convince every single country in Europe.
Maybe leaving the euro and getting the drachme back is financially even better, if it makes their tourism industry cheaper and even more attractive.
It is a beautiful country, with lovely people, I have absolutely no doubt that they will pull themselves out of it, once it is clear they have to do it without money from Europe.
Because creative business is something they are really good at.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
...I am very serious - this is a critical moment for the Greek people - a referendum is the right thing...
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.
So many other countries in Europe are really poor
What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?
If you are very young I am sorry but this is funniest (read:stupidest) thing I read here.
Are Cambodia and Vietnam taking their tax money to help Greece or does it goes for Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and others?
Germans spend their money, Greece is spending others money. No more.
Referendum can be simplified to something like this:
a) we still want to live like drunk millionaire spending poorer people money we haven't earned.
b) We need to settle down, live modestly and spending money we earned.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
...I am very serious - this is a critical moment for the Greek people - a referendum is the right thing...
You and me can do the same thing. Anyone can. We should be Greece presidents. And heroes
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.
So many other countries in Europe are really poor
What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?
If you are very young I am sorry but this is funniest (read:stupidest) thing I read here.
Are Cambodia and Vietnam taking their tax money to help Greece or does it goes for Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and others?
Germans spend their money, Greece is spending others money. No more.
Referendum can be simplified to something like this:
a) we still want to live like drunk millionaire spending poorer people money we haven't earned.
b) We need to settle down, live modestly and spending money we earned.
...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western propaganda...
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...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western propaganda...
Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?
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...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western propaganda...
Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?
...revolution against rich...
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...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western propaganda...
Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?
...revolution against rich...
wrong.
revolution against paying back your dept. Some of that money surely belong to rich/banks, some to people who got their wages cut long time ago and some of their tax money goes to Greece.
you can also lend me some money to show you how that feels :D
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I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan. It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon. It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way. Most of us aren't as well off as we might think. When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.
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Anyone that thinks debt isn't a problem should look at this for a few hours.
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/ (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/)
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Wage levels don't necessarily reflect poverty. The poverty of trying to live in a flat in Athens, with hire-purchase debts owing on your car, furniture and white goods after losing your job is quite different from the poverty of being in a village, having a donkey, a stream with a stone for the washing, and a vegetable plot with onions, eggplants and tomatoes.
situation in Croatia and many more countries isn't any different? People loosing their jobs daily.
I don't know a single person who cash out his flat or car...
Whose fault is if that person got credit to buy a new car?
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Joining the euro is the worst thing that has happened to Greece for a long time, maybe even since the end of the civil war.
Why did Greece even joined? even better question is... why they don't like euro now, but 8 years ago it was all good about euro?
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I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan. It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon. It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way. Most of us aren't as well off as we might think. When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.
This is because people continue to elect those politicians promising unsustainable minimum salary laws, wage increases, social benefits, etc.
When the economy is not strong enough to support the promises, those politicians will borrow or print money.
Greece has debt and more euros are being printed to cover up for those unsustainable expenses (reason for the fallen euro)
Printing euros is nothing else but a hidden tax which affects middle class savings and impacts poor people even more through inflation.
The ones gaining from money printing are always the banks and those close to them since they are the first to put their hands on the new money before the market has adjusted to inflation.
So stop electing irresponsible politicians like this Greek gambler and vote for fiscal responsability.
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suggested for a very long time that the introduction of the euro ... would lead to the next step on European integration, fiscal (tax) union
The currency can only be credible on the markets if there is fiscal union. But fiscal union makes no sense because the economies of such a vast continent will never be properly in sync. The whole point of economic policy is that it needs to be flexible locally (e.g. tax rates, interest rates etc - these are how democratic govts and / or central banks can control the money supply, inflation, stimulus etc).
Since fiscal union is not feasible, the cannot survive in it's current form. Maybe The Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Germany will retain it - with fiscal policy set in Berlin. France has a huge economy but a very different approach to fiscal policy especially govt spending.
The and the idea of closer union has destroyed the goodwill and prosperity which the old Common Market stood for.
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I'm Greek and i feel the current government is irresponsible towards greek people who willingly or not made big sacrifices for 5 years and they are irresponsible towards the rest of Europe and european people who trusted us us their hard earned money.
We needed just 1 million in reforms before Tsipras took over and now after 6 months of "negotiations" and delay we need 8 millions in reforms.
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I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan. It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon. It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way. Most of us aren't as well off as we might think. When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.
The main way of creating liquidity (i.e. money supply) is via lending. Lending effectively increases the amount of money in circulation. It's a genius system which has funded the vast progress enjoyed over the past few hundred years (and also the wars).
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This graph tells a lot about the unsustainable living standard in Greece.
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
I wish more countries would hold referendums on important matters. Referendums are banksters and eurocrat's biggest fear. If greeks are smart enough, they will get out of the euro and start walking with their own legs. But yes Greece has itself to blame, that's what happens with left-wing populism.
It's unsustainable for different countries to share the same currency, especially with such disparity between them. The countries lose the ability to control inflation and money supply. Then you start seeing weird patterns, like everyday products costing triple in Spain than in Germany.
EUSSR was a bad idea from the start, except from freedom of movement. That's ruined though now with illegals getting a free pass. Why have visa policies at all if 3rd world muslim people get to live in Europe forever on taxpayer money. I liked Europe, but it's collapse is inevitable. Maybe eastern europeans can watch how western europe is slowly turning into a hellhole and wake up before it's too late.
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I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan. It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon. It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way. Most of us aren't as well off as we might think. When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.
The main way of creating liquidity (i.e. money supply) is via lending. Lending effectively increases the amount of money in circulation. It's a genius system which has funded the vast progress enjoyed over the past few hundred years (and also the wars).
And also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes. Nothing is for free. Sooner or later the payback time becomes unavoidable.
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also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes
These are part of the normal economic cycle. A down is a time of low costs and opportunity. Out of down comes up.
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I wanna hear Greek folks.
Any Greeks on MSG???
Where is gcrook?
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also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes
These are part of the normal economic cycle. A down is a time of low costs and opportunity. Out of down comes up.
Actually these are the root cause of the economical cycles, not the other way around. The economical cycles are not created out of thin air.
A broken economy is not an oportunity. This is a huge fallacy.
I wonder if you personally would consider your house destroyed by an earthquake an opportunity.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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..yes - he is a good poker player - we agree ...
But it's not a game and playing it like a game is inappropriate.
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We all know Greece is in big trouble, but how did it qualify under the Maastricht rules to begin with . . . . . as often the case, Goldman Sachs continues to screw the world.
It's kind of geeky reading but there are reasons for much of the world's troubles:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html)
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If greeks are smart enough, they will get out of the euro and start walking with their own legs.
They could already do that but they didn't... I wonder why. :) They still can.
Those two guys Tsipras and Varufakis lost six months doing nothing, as dk said from country getting out of recession put it in even more problems and when they need to make one decision and people have chosen them exactly for that decision (in short term explained "f... off creditors" as they said) they don't have competence to do that.
If Greek hate so much those evil european bankers/creditors/germans/IMF... why not just show them middle finger and go out of euro and eurozone?
answer: They don't hate their money :)
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Eurozone Rejects Greek Bailout Extension: All Bailout Programs Expire On June 30, Referendum Moot
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-27/eurozone-rejects-greek-bailout-extension (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-27/eurozone-rejects-greek-bailout-extension)
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WOW - Bailout extension rejected! Tuesday is THE Day!
Euro finance ministers have refused to extend Greeces bailout following shock decision to hold a referendum
http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/eurozone-crisis-live (http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/eurozone-crisis-live)
The TV channel has also reported this evening that some 400m euro have been withdrawn from ATMs since Tsipras announced the vote. Dozens of MPs have been seen lining up at ATMs in the parliament building today.
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Joining the euro is the worst thing that has happened to Greece for a long time, maybe even since the end of the civil war.
Why did Greece even joined? even better question is... why they don't like euro now, but 8 years ago it was all good about euro?
Actually, they do like the euro and they don't want to lose it. They are afraid that losing it will push them back into third-world status. But at the same time, their economic base isn't strong enough to live with it. It's a bit like an abusive marriage with both parties afraid to call it quits.
I honestly can't tell you why they joined. I'm sure there was a fair amount of pride involved, hopes of being dragged up to north European standards on the back of the currency, a belief in the European ideal. For all I know, the politicians in charge thought they would make another fat brown envelope out of the deal. But what really drove it, I've no idea - I'm not Greek, let alone a member of the Greek political families that decide this stuff.
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WOW - Bailout extension rejected! Tuesday is THE Day!
Euro finance ministers have refused to extend Greeces bailout following shock decision to hold a referendum
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/eurozone-crisis-live[/url] ([url]http://www.theguardian.com/business/series/eurozone-crisis-live[/url])
The TV channel has also reported this evening that some 400m euro have been withdrawn from ATMs since Tsipras announced the vote. Dozens of MPs have been seen lining up at ATMs in the parliament building today.
Tuesday isn't the day - the day is now. The EU can't announce that the bailout will end without renewal on Tuesday without immediately triggering all the consequences that come from that. Nobody is going to fill up the Greek cash machines so that the people can withdraw everything on Monday, when we all know that the financial support is about to end.
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I think Dijsselbloem is about to speak ec.europa.eu/avservices/ebs/live.cfm?page=1
It will be historic.
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I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
That map serves as a blatant misinformation about the average net income, at least about Portugal, and distorts the truth and the perception of those looking at it.
The average net income for the vast majority of the population is nowhere near 1001, but being really optimistic more along 600, and now even less with all the wages dropping.
What happens is that the top ranks of the Portuguese companies are among the highest paid in Europe, even above Germany, while the normal worker is one of the worst paid in the Western Europe.
If you have a CEO earning 50.000 a month (and there are LOADS of them) and his 100 workers earning 500 you get an average income of 990,10. But the reality is that you may also have a couple directors earning 5.000 raising the average even more.
On a map you may look at those 1001 and think it's not that bad, but the truth is that most of the population is nowhere near that value and closer the the minimum wage of around 500.
If I eat two chickens and you eat none, the average will say we eat a chicken each, despite you're starving to death and I'm getting fatter everyday...
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I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url])
That map serves as a blatant misinformation about the average net income, at least about Portugal, and distorts the truth and the perception of those looking at it.
The average net income for the vast majority of the population is nowhere near 1001, but being really optimistic more along 600, and now even less with all the wages dropping.
What happens is that the top ranks of the Portuguese companies are among the highest paid in Europe, even above Germany, while the normal worker is one of the worst paid in the Western Europe.
If you have a CEO earning 50.000 a month (and there are LOADS of them) and his 100 workers earning 500 you get an average income of 990,10. But the reality is that you may also have a couple directors earning 5.000 raising the average even more.
On a map you may look at those 1001 and think it's not that bad, but the truth is that most of the population is nowhere near that value and closer the the minimum wage of around 500.
If I eat two chickens and you eat none, the average will say we eat a chicken each, despite you're starving to death and I'm getting fatter everyday...
..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage (http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage)
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If you are very young I am sorry but this is funniest (read:stupidest) thing I read here.
Are Cambodia and Vietnam taking their tax money to help Greece or does it goes for Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and others?
Germans spend their money, Greece is spending others money. No more.
Referendum can be simplified to something like this:
a) we still want to live like drunk millionaire spending poorer people money we haven't earned.
b) We need to settle down, live modestly and spending money we earned.
Obviously I'm very young - why else would I choose Greece to retire in? I'd have to be over 20 to retire anywhere else ;)
Seriously, though, this "the Greeks are living off other people's money" meme is nonsense. The Greeks have a loan and have been repaying it. If you buy a car, does that mean you are living off other people's money, because you haven't finished paying for it? If and when they default, then you can say they are living off someone else's cash - but so far the lenders have been living off the Greeks by taking interest from them. It hasn't cost the rest of Europe anything.
Your A and B are not the questions at all. The real questions are "Do we take 10 or 20 years as poverty and mass unemployment as the price of being in the euro, or do we take two or three or four years of extreme poverty followed by some sort of recovery in order to get out of it? Unfortunately, Syriza is now peddling the line that the Greeks get to keep the euro whatever happens.
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I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url])
That map serves as a blatant misinformation about the average net income, at least about Portugal, and distorts the truth and the perception of those looking at it.
The average net income for the vast majority of the population is nowhere near 1001, but being really optimistic more along 600, and now even less with all the wages dropping.
What happens is that the top ranks of the Portuguese companies are among the highest paid in Europe, even above Germany, while the normal worker is one of the worst paid in the Western Europe.
If you have a CEO earning 50.000 a month (and there are LOADS of them) and his 100 workers earning 500 you get an average income of 990,10. But the reality is that you may also have a couple directors earning 5.000 raising the average even more.
On a map you may look at those 1001 and think it's not that bad, but the truth is that most of the population is nowhere near that value and closer the the minimum wage of around 500.
If I eat two chickens and you eat none, the average will say we eat a chicken each, despite you're starving to death and I'm getting fatter everyday...
..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
great, thanks, that's even better. Now look at the median wages on countries in European union like Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary etc. those are also the ones whose money is being pumped in Greece
Even better if anyone can find median wages in all EU 5 years ago.
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I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage[/url])
That map serves as a blatant misinformation about the average net income, at least about Portugal, and distorts the truth and the perception of those looking at it.
The average net income for the vast majority of the population is nowhere near 1001, but being really optimistic more along 600, and now even less with all the wages dropping.
What happens is that the top ranks of the Portuguese companies are among the highest paid in Europe, even above Germany, while the normal worker is one of the worst paid in the Western Europe.
If you have a CEO earning 50.000 a month (and there are LOADS of them) and his 100 workers earning 500 you get an average income of 990,10. But the reality is that you may also have a couple directors earning 5.000 raising the average even more.
On a map you may look at those 1001 and think it's not that bad, but the truth is that most of the population is nowhere near that value and closer the the minimum wage of around 500.
If I eat two chickens and you eat none, the average will say we eat a chicken each, despite you're starving to death and I'm getting fatter everyday...
Portugal is not the best example. There are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages:
"..as a population-weighted average of EU-28 Member States national figures the top 20 % (highest equivalised disposable income) of a Member States population received 5.1 times as much income as the bottom 20 % (lowest equivalised disposable income) of the Member States population. This ratio varied considerably across the EU-28 Member States, from 3.4 in Slovenia, to at least 6.0 in Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia and Greece, peaking at 7.2 in Spain"
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/f/f5/Inequality_of_income_distribution%2C_2012_%281%29_%28income_quintile_share_ratio%29_YB14_II.png (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/f/f5/Inequality_of_income_distribution%2C_2012_%281%29_%28income_quintile_share_ratio%29_YB14_II.png)
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Obviously I'm very young - why else would I choose Greece to retire in? I'd have to be over 20 to retire anywhere else ;)
Seriously, though, this "the Greeks are living off other people's money" meme is nonsense. The Greeks have a loan and have been repaying it. If you buy a car, does that mean you are living off other people's money, because you haven't finished paying for it? If and when they default, then you can say they are living off someone else's cash - but so far the lenders have been living off the Greeks by taking interest from them. It hasn't cost the rest of Europe anything.
Your A and B are not the questions at all. The real questions are "Do we take 10 or 20 years as poverty and mass unemployment as the price of being in the euro, or do we take two or three or four years of extreme poverty followed by some sort of recovery in order to get out of it? Unfortunately, Syriza is now peddling the line that the Greeks get to keep the euro whatever happens.
Didn't read that part about your retirement.
Car is good example, even better is when you taking others money not to invest it so it can return someday, but to pay wages and pensions.
Greek people are choosing the option not to pay debts when trying to keep their wages, and it's not a problem as it is, they also keep loaning more money to fund their wages.
Why they didn't leave Euro while it was working good to them? They want euro/germany to pay wages (loaning more and more money) but not to pay debts.
Leave Eu and leave those naughty lenders without their interest.
When you said it isn't cost Eu anything, you mean Greece already returned all money it took?
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It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon.
Would you care to elaborate on this?
Because Portugal is one of the targeted countries regarding this idea, and all I saw in my life was people struggling to have a decent life. And by decent I'm not talking about houses with pools, top range Mercedes and holidays on luxurious destinations abroad. I'm talking, being able to pay for an apartment and a small economic car, especially if you're a worker of the private sector.
But when the EU decided to drop the protection of the European economy against the dumping prices of China, India and others, opening the borders to their products and exempting them of custom taxes the Portuguese economy crashed hard!
Portugal was until some years ago probably the country with the cheapest working force in the EU, and with a type of industry that gave employment to a lot of people, who despite being very qualified in their areas (textile, clothing, etc) have little studies - courtesy of the fascist dictatorship so well tolerated by the democratic Europe. But who could compete with the costs of China?
This was the start of the end. Hard working people who had a stable job, managed to pay for the bills and pay for superior education of their children, saw their company close. Many couples got unemployed, living from charity, and became unable to pay for their obligations.
And to top all of this we are insulted when we hear we live beyond our means! Is a German couple able to live, both unemployed and with a shrinking unemployment protection?... Or are they also living "beyond their means"?
The EU should protect their members, and by this I do not mean giving us money, but protect the economy especially the weaker ones.
The only ones living above their means in Portugal, are the ones belonging to the governing party mafias, the PS, the PSD and its' crutch the PP. Parties financed by Berlin and Paris who control 99% of the media in Portugal and destroy any political alternatives (old or new as we are seeing right now with a new party, the PDR).
PS/PSD/PP parties that divert money from the state in corrupt deals, with full knowledge of the EU leaders, but to whom nothing happens because the German bankers will profit with the interests of the money sent to Portugal.
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
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Hopefully the trend will move on other countries and this banksters ruled union will end like a soap bubble.
And pushing money into someones pockets, blackmailing him how to spend it and leading him into investing to save their institutions and managers that are swimming in bonuses and than pulling it back trough normal people who never seen any benefit from it all trough corrupted leaders is not helping, that is criminal.
I dont have a loan, never want to have one, I was aggressively offered one countless times trough their financial institutions that Im obligated to use by law implemented by their corrupted serves and please righteous financial institutions of this world dont give a dime to my government, that's not my loan , I don't want to pay it off, never asked for it and if it means stone age and starting from 0 then so be it.
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And pushing money into someones pockets
You are right about all but this one. Psychologically healthy adult can't be pushed into debt if he don't want/need it, as you haven't been neither have I. We can assume that Greek government were psychologically healthy adults that were chosen by millions psychologically healthy Greeks.
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
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banksters
I really hate the use of this term / meme. I don't believe it gets us anywhere. And blaming bankers is, ultimately, the same as simplistically blaming anyone else for what are actually much more complicated issues. Also - it feeds into that whole daft conspiracy mindset.
Also - well we've been here before - where people start vilifying international financiers and imaginary elites. And it did not end well. Indeed the formation of the old Common Market was, partly, an optimistic response to all of that.
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
2013 !
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
2013 !
Right. These are the latest numbers from Eurostat. They don't have all the 2014 numbers, yet.
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
2013 !
isn't that time both country were already in recession?
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banksters
I really hate the use of this term / meme. I don't believe it gets us anywhere. And blaming bankers is, ultimately, the same as simplistically blaming anyone else for what are actually much more complicated issues. Also - it feeds into that whole daft conspiracy mindset.
Also - well we've been here before - where people start vilifying international financiers and imaginary elites. And it did not end well. Indeed the formation of the old Common Market was, partly, an optimistic response to all of that.
What is conspiracy mindset ? Is it a mindset that is refusing to ignore pure facts and to blindly continue to defend the thesis that everything is more complicated than it seems whiteout a bit of will to research the most fundamental arguments on any basis ?
Its already a multiple court proven fact that banks are creating money out of nothing , based on nothing, that governments don't control their financial institution at all , that financial institutions are in private hands and are pushing the laws in their favor trough their corrupted puppets called politicians who benefit the protection of immunity and thus are not responsible for the damage they are creating to people until they keep to obey their masters.
A yet majority calls that conspiracy theory , well I got news for you , that theory is major political practice big time
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694, and the other says that the Net is 681.
I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13 of taxes over income and Social Security.
Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70 over the mentioned Gross 694 sending the salary under the 600. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.
You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.
And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694, and the other says that the Net is 681.
I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13 of taxes over income and Social Security.
Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70 over the mentioned Gross 694 sending the salary under the 600. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.
You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.
And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.
I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.
Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians, instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.
Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!
What about that?
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..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...
here: [url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url] ([url]http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage[/url])
Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694 will fall to under 600.
And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.
Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!
Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET
There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694, and the other says that the Net is 681.
I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13 of taxes over income and Social Security.
Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70 over the mentioned Gross 694 sending the salary under the 600. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.
You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.
And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.
I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.
Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians, instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.
Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!
What about that?
Very responsible...
Lets check on Croatia last EU member...
Banks...sold out after EU and financial commissions orders , not a single one owned by the Republic Of Croatia anymore, all of those banks rejecting to respect court ruling against them ,openly threatening with European Commission.
Energetic... sold out sole Croatian oil company sold after instructions of same institutions for a 3 years profit
Telecommunications.... sold out largest monopolistic company sold by same principles for a shameful 2 years profit
Social Insurance... on best direction to become privatized together with health care
Dont have to mention that the main blackmail argument of EU to privatase all that was the huge loan created in 20 years while governments blindly followed EU instructions against its own people and sol out 90% of everything that was in peoples hand 20 years ago and bringing pure profit to the country.
Lets see where the loaned money went....
Mostly in private pockets to the people serving and cooperating with the ones that were giving those loans
The main instructions was obligation to invest in highways which are generating such looses now that the new government is about to give in concession to the same ones that were giving the loans for their construction against will of people and rejecting the obligation for referendum for which enough signatures were collected despite the insane referendum regulation that were implemented lately.
The same prime minister and his colleges who arranged all those deals is sitting in federal prison after he decided to stop obeying at the moment they asked him to trade territory.
All deals are still valid , will never reach courts and the official explanation is that we cannot change past , that a deal is a deal, the country has no options than to take more loans, unemployment is higher then ever and 10% of highly educated people are just waiting that work permits agreement gets ratified and to leave the country.
The day before EU referendum minister of finance in main daily news openly instruct retirees to vote YES because there is a strong chance they will never see their well earned pensions if the country stays out of the union.
Constitution say that the country can loose its sovereignty only by will of absolute majority yet they changed the rules only for that referendum so relative majority of turnout of only 40% of people was enough for the move.
That my friend is called economic genocide over a nation.
Having in mind things like ignoring Irish votes and treaty of Lisbon its absolutely clear that this is operated by people who couldn't care less about democracy and responsibility of any kind that are using finances to enslave people.
What about that ?
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The EU membership is the best thing that happened to these countries.
Politicians cannot change the laws to suit themselves and steal with impunity, anymore. They must adhere to the rigors of the EU club.
Some of them would love to go back to the "free-for-all" theft and corruption frenzy from the post-communist years. Some of them would love to buy for themselves, and for peanuts, the telecom, energy or banking industries, you seem to worry so much about. And they would also love to prevent all external competition, only to enrich themselves faster.
This is why they do their best to play the nationalistic card, blaming EU for making life harder for everybody, when in fact it is harder for them to steal, in the name of the "national interest"
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The EU membership is the best thing that happened to these countries.
Politicians cannot change the laws to suit themselves and steal with impunity, anymore. They must adhere to the rigors of the EU club.
Some of them would love to go back to the "free-for-all" theft and corruption frenzy from the post-communist years. Some of them would love to buy for themselves and for peanuts, the telecom, energy or banking industries, you seem to worry so much about. And they would love to prevent all external competition.
This is why they do their best to play the nationalistic card, blaming EU for making life harder for everybody, when in fact it is harder for them to steal, in the name of the "national interest"
Nope actually its worst thing that ever happened to people and best thing that ever happened to political elite parasites.
External EU conglomerate competition already bought all that was worthy for peanuts buy bribing those politicians under the table and changing laws to suite their needs.
Political structure never changed indeed and highest party leaders and their families from communism time are the biggest pro Europeans at the time and they have never been richer by far. Its not s hard to check someones political history at all.
EU has exactly the same political structure as ex USSR and the highest part of them has never been elected by people at both systems.
Political power of EU elite is being inherited by family roots in worst way in history that you cannot even compare with hardest communistic times.
The voting power of the people in Europe has never been so degraded in whole Europe history and its harder to have a referendum at this time than in communism.
And after all why are European leaders so starving to pull nations in their union ? Especially nations with financially unreasonable leaders and people ?
Isn't it easier to let them perish in ignorance a come back begging to be part of that great thing ?
Why did the ever start to give loans to such countries and "help" them ?
Again that called economical genocide and nothing less than that.
And please don't start with the nationalism cliche because people who are among worst opponents of EU are well known anti nationalist in their countries and wider and have gone to huge problem because of that from both ends.
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You contradict yourself.
You admit that your politicians stole and enriched themselves during the pre-EU years.
Now, when EU tries to stop the corruption, theft and economical malpractice by asking for good governance principles and practices (as they tried with Greece, to stay on topic), you consider this the "worst thing that ever happened"
Obviously, for some reason, you either prefer the lawless, anarchic, post-communist years, or, you are nostalgic about the "glorious" communist period.
Anyway congratulations to Croatia for managing a much lower national debt than Greece!
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You contradict yourself.
You admit that your politicians stole and enriched themselves during the pre-EU years.
Now, when EU tries to stop the corruption, theft and economical malpractice by asking for good governance principles and practices (as they tried with Greece, to stay on topic), you consider this the "worst thing that ever happened"
Obviously, for some reason, you either prefer the lawless, anarchic, post-communist years, or, you are nostalgic about the "glorious" communist period.
Would draw you the image if I could to get you realize I liked those time as much as I like this and the ones before...sleazy people always find a way to go to the top because the system basically never changes despite the illusion that it does. If it did you would notice that the society is lead by the most consent and capable based on science and innovation in favor of all and not by a third grade clerks based on economy which isn't even a science itself to favor very small minority of greedy billionaires.
They were stealing then and they are stealing now and the ones running EU are no different at all. No one of them is being kicked out of his place because he cannot afford to pay his bills that's for sure regardless of a system he ruled at.
And when you say good governance you mean lowering health and social security rights to the people, forcing them to work to the day they die and making them pay even more taxes on the enough tiny piece of their work they are already getting to pay the debt created by the people walking inside the European parliament and their sponsors that are financing the creation of those debts at the first place.
I would also talk about anarchy and politics with you but you would have to stand in another level of conciseness to get my point without trying to guess what I stand for and using any political system terms in the same sentence.
I surely have no reasons for nostalgia , I'm a pure dreamer and the world that I dream of surely doesn't stand at this pseudo fascistic grounds using communist principles and changing names of the terms to suit their needs and to suck the last drop of a small man for the corporate success hiding behind the great term of globalization.
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders but when a modern corporate colonization movement takes the wheel of the "term" i can only wish that it will end like a soap bubble and Greece leaving the euro zone is nice step in that direction. Hope they will let them peacefully because I'm always for peace.
Peace :)
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OK, John Lennon, peace :)
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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OK, John Lennon, peace :)
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
;)
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I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.
Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians, instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.
Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!
What about that?
The numbers I've been mentioning are the ones in the news on the TV's and newspapers based in data from credible Portuguese institutions like the INE, ISCTE and others. And I could start pointing to portuguese documents. I'm pretty sure anyone here can read portuguese, right?
Many information coming from European institutions about Portugal are manipulated and don't ad-up with the ones from those Portuguese institutions, because the Portuguese government also feed manipulated information to the EU. Many parties in Portugal confront the governments with this situation, and the way they fake the statistics by using criteria that benefit their agenda.
But in Portugal the government doesn't lie to bring benefits to the Portuguese, but the contrary. The current government is a ultra-liberal government that has the objective to destroy the state and sell everything to their private friends. And if feeding certain type of information that will give them the backup from EU and the Troika to attack the people they will do it. In fact, the Prime-Minister said: "We will do what the memorandum (of the troika) says and go beyond!"
The same prime-minister that evaded huge taxes and Social Security contributions!!!
And no, this isn't just about Greece from the point someone says this is this discussion: "It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon."
This argument is being used in Europe to brainwash EU people against the simple citizen of some countries like Portugal, when it's the portuguese governments supported by France and Germany that have been destroying the country for decades with full knowledge of them.
And you mention that other countries don't have bailouts. And it's true!
I'm not denying the criminal management of the country by the corrupt Portuguese governments, and for any criticism you make I can point 100 because I live here! What bothers me is the European people being brainwashed against the simple portuguese citizen, like we're living luxurious lifes, in a pre-racist attitude.
The problem with Portugal is the destruction of the economy through EU actions (like opening the commercial borders to China and others) that sent to the unemployment hundreds of thousands of people that were able to pay for their bills in a timely manner, putting a huge stress on the Social Security system. Hundreds of thousands of people that contributed to it, suddenly started to draw money from unemployment benefits increasing the burden on the state and increasing the debt.
And also the funding of absurd investments like the Euro 2004, the three parallel highways between Lisbon and Porto, and the Public-Private Partnerships that cost billions to the state every year. And all this despite the protests of many, many people.
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FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians, instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.
I wouldn't be very reassured by that if I were Portuguese. In 2008, when it was discovered that Greece needed to adopt "responsible austerity" to repair its economy, the Greek debt to GDP percentage was 129.9 - a whisker less than the current rate you quote for Portugal. It has only risen to 180% because responsibly following the EU prescription has shrunk the economy by 30%. If you divide 130 by 0.7 (the percentage of the economy that hasn't disappeared) you get 186, which shows that destroying a third of the economy and leaving more than 50% of young people without jobs over a seven year period has succeeded in cutting the debt load in cash terms by 3%. And it's clearly going to be a lot harder to squeeze another 3% out of the country over the next few years because there is so much less of the economy left to squeeze.
A recent report showed that Greece was hit by a cyclical slowdown in the shipping industry after the global crash of 2008, with freight rates being squeezed. Shipping delivers something like a fifth of the country's gdp, so this was a major blow. The normal response to a cyclical decline in a major part of the economy would be to boost spending - as the UK did - until there is a recovery. Instead, the Troika chose that moment to impose austerity. The consequences of this were not impossible to see, the Indian representative on the IMF board warned that the policies they were embarking on could lead to a recessionary spiral resulting in a full-blown depresssion - which is what has happened.
A lot is made of the spendthift Greeks who want to live the high life by borrowing other people's money, and that they should learn to live in austerity, like the Germans do. But according to a top economist writing in The Guardian today the Germans don't go for austerity at all. Their economy is based on a high level of spending to develop the infrastructure - precisely opposite to the policies they say will save Greece - see the third assessment in this article http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/27/greek-bailout-extension-refused-panel-leading-economists-give-their-verdict (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/27/greek-bailout-extension-refused-panel-leading-economists-give-their-verdict)
A lot is made of the rectitude of the Institutions, and how the Greeks should learn from them and abandon their evil ways. But it seems to be widely accepted that the ECB knew that Greece was massaging the figures but still let them in because the political project desired Greek entry and, anyway, the Germans and French had broken the rules too, so why shouldn't Greece? They even elevated the chief Greek figure fiddler, Lucas Papademos, to the number-2 post in the ECB as a reward for his good work. If it's imagined that this was just because they didn't know of his fiddling, it's worth remembering that after the crisis erupted in 2010 - with the fiddle fully exposed - Papademos was made Prime Minister of Greece, with the Troika's enthusiastic support.
It's also worth thinking about how much the "feckless spendthrift Greeks" problem owes to the level of interest rates. If the Greeks were blessed with the same interest rates as the Germans (who you actually have to pay to get them to accept your cash) then, clearly, servicing debt would not be a problem. But when the markets want 20% or 30% return for lending then servicing the debt becomes impossible. In the 1990s, UK mortgage rates went above 16% (courtesy of the EU, as it happens), today they are maybe 6%. The difference in repayments on a 140,000 mortgage going from 6% to 16% is about Ģ1,000 a month. How many people could cope with that sort of increase in their monthly mortgage payments without turning into "feckless spendthrifts, living high on the hog at other people's expense" who moaned about not wanting to repay all that interest on what they borrowed?
Of course, this doesn't exonerate Greece for its tax evasion, corruption and cronyism. I don't know how they will solve those problems when they seem to be pretty much built into the system. I suspect tax rates are set artificially high to make allowance for the expected degree of fiddling - so anybody paying taxes in full is actually getting over-taxed and in the case of businesses is probably becoming completely uncompetitive.
Hopefully, you will see that the situation is far more nuanced than the tabloid papers like to make out. The stuff I see a lot of people writing - and apparently believing - really is just a parody of the actual situation.
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as a guy who traveled in more than 60 countries and lived for almost 20 yrs in several areas fo europe and asia and that in his youth was strongly in favour of nationalism and protectionism here's my observations :
1 - governments, banks, and of course the EU and NATO just owe us nothing and are busy into inventing new ways to squeeze us like a lemon, the whole system is designed to be unfair and to play with us like cat and mouse, like stick and carrot, and this is hammered in our heads since birth with public schools, public medias, and pro-government propaganda at all levels, there's no escape unless you think out of the box, in which case you'll still be allowed to voice your opinion but you won't get far as again the system is designed in such a way that any form of dissent is irrilevant in practical terms and will never become a realistic menace to the ruling elite.
2 - since this is the situation pretty much anywhere including in socialist and post socialist countries our only option is to be as mobile as possible.
as photographers we're allowed a lot of freedom and we can work and produce wherever we want thanks to 3G/4G and of course we can store our money in foreign banks, this is potentially the best of both worlds but there are of course pros and cons and a price to pay.
3 - "fighting" : there's nothing to fight anymore, first of all we own nothing, "our" country is barely the place where we're born and our ancestors were born, a geographical thing .. why feeling any loyalty or sense of pride ? their flag is not my flag, it's just the flag of the latest entity that won the war in 1945 .. the mono-culture they've imposed after 1945 is not my culture either, our local languages are also being destroyed by the dominance of english worldwide and in any industrial and intellectual field, and finally what . are you fighting for if you don't have any ownership if you don't own lands and villas, we're all europeans and these political borders are merely a historical thing that have little reason to exist in 2015.
3 - it doesn't make sense to live in the expensive parts of the West, we can produce where the cost of life is cheap and sell where the price is high.
there are also many other benefits in living outside the EUSSR but i won't bore you with the details, you must see by yourself and of course living abroad is not a thing for everyone so each to his own.
4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.
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What bothers me is the European people being brainwashed against the simple portuguese citizen, like we're living luxurious lifes, in a pre-racist attitude.
The other day, in the middle of squabbling with the Greeks, Juncker described the eurozone as "the area of solidarity and prosperity". Of course, my first assumption was that this was a line from a stand-up comic, but it seems that Juncker is so deluded that he believes it despite the evidence from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. I can't think of anything in Europe responsible for more division, nationalist sentiment and economic misery than the euro.
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FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians, instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.
Portugal's debt in 2008, at the start of the crisis was 72% of the GP. After the imposition of the Troika measures it has risen to 130%!!!
Is this a success? When hundreds of thousands of portuguese have now emigrated, especially the highly-qualified ones?
Then you have the government saying that the economy is recovering and that the unemployment is starting to drop. Sure, if unemployed people leave to foreign countries in droves, unemployment drops. Yet the truth is that there aren't more jobs, and in fact they are shrinking.
(http://oinsurgente.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/divida1.jpg)
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4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.
... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...
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As I said in another post, the EU is actively ruining the substance of participating countries. Nothing is black and white, so yes, it brought good things (Schengen e.g.), but on the long run it makes the continent a difficult place to live or make business. Many leave or jump around from country to country in the hope to find a better live.
The Problem is not the Idea of EU, but the incompetent implementation. Too many mistakes had been made while laying out the legal and ideological basis of this project. And during the economic crisis they have proven that they are simply unwilling to correct those mistakes.
The so called "Austerity" is simply a tool for governments to please banks and investors while being able to call the People of Greece and other countries not willing to bleed "lazy" and blame them for their debts.
While I agree that the southern mentality is actually less productive I do not think that bleeding countries out, punishing them, defamating them in all TV channels et.c is the solution. Instead, there should have been done some research in economic structures and their relation with mentalities and cultures (if you like the other culture or not, we want to integrate, not to judge) and the design of the Euro and the principles of the EU should have shown flexibility to be able to allow every country the freedom they need to apply the traditional measures to compensate - in the case of Greece it was e.g. Inflation. Same goes e.g. for Italy. There had been a healthy industry and their economics had been fine. They compensated aspects of southern way of live as well through high inflation of the Lira, but in the end they had a good life....on the other hand, Germans e.g. suffer. They are not made for the current EU politics which floods markets with liquidity and provokes inflation. They suffer. They want a stable currency and deserve it and need it for their way of live. Who am I to judge?
Especially when you know how business is done outside of Europe, how salaries can be higher in so called third world countries then in a bunch of EU countries, when you see how easy a startup can emerge in HK whilst e.g. the Czech Republic is killing every Entrepreneur without a expensive and complicated legal entity with fraudulent and ridiculous taxes and social security obligation (fraudulent because the state offers almost nothing in return) then you wonder how long the EU can survive as a legal framework in a world which is every year more populated and competitive.
However, it is not all black on the EU....
In the case of Greece - they will have a hard time ahead, but on the long run I think it is good. As well as calculated by the People in Charge. They provoke the situation and want to leave the current regimen of financial imprisonment by named institutions.
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Is this a success? When hundreds of thousands of portuguese have now emigrated, especially the highly-qualified ones?
Then you have the government saying that the economy is recovering and that the unemployment is starting to drop. Sure, if unemployed people leave to foreign countries in droves, unemployment drops. Yet the truth is that there aren't more jobs, and in fact they are shrinking.
there's nothing wrong in moving to greener pastures and this is true also at the local level, just think about people wanting to enroll in university but living in the mountains, people skilled in a trade but their potential employers are all in the capital city .. no matter what, most of us will have to leave our little village sooner or later ...
what's the difference between moving 500km away in a big city and moving 1000km in a different EU country ?
like for instance portuguese or greeks moving to germany and UK ? no big deal, especially nowadays when we have cheap airplanes and fast trains and there's no need for silly red tape burocracy in order to get a job in another EU country as it was before the 90s.
leaving your friends and relatives back home ? so what ? the idea of doing the same job forever and living in the same place forever is ridicolous in 2015, smart people move where they're getting a higher ROI for their work, simple as that .. why being a doctor or an engineer in greece when you can get paid 3-4x times more in germany or UK ? is it worth it to emigrate ? yes and yes, of course it is, only losers will live their whole life in the same sh-itty village locked into a low paying job just because they can't find anything better in their area and they don't speak a foreign language and they're terrified at the idea of being alone in a foreign country.
moreover, what is greece or portugal doing for their own citizens ? more taxation, more burocracy, less benefits, pension cuts ... there's just no point giving their country any loyalty or money, ethnic or nationalist pride should be kept for our family and friends and eventually for our city or origin, anything else is just nonsense and has been abused by the elites since forever ... even the idea of being "european" .. i mean in the end we're just whites and europe is just a geographic notion, we're white even in other continents or on the moon, doesn't change anything in being white and european and from city xyz and from that specific rich or poor neighborhood and carrying that surname and the whole mumbo jumbo.
it's just you and me and ultimately we only live once.
if country xys is going down the drain you better leave the ship before it sinks and good riddance, plenty of other countries around welcoming us with open arms as long as we carry some skills and money !
it's only the parasites who are now terrified of their governments' imminent default or economic bust, they're the ones with no skills and no hope but sorry guys being weak is a choice and so is being strong, they reap what they sow and they will pay the price for their non accountability that they enjoyed in the past.
nobody owe us anything in this world, it's up to us to play our cards as best as we can, especially if you've not much to put on the table and if you're not born rich.
don't blame the cultural dumbing down imposed by the elites, blame yourself for being dumb and believing their BS, turning off the TV is a good start for instance.
greece going bankrupt will change nothing as far as i'm concerned, they will adapt to the new economic scenario and act accordingly, what they call now "poverty" is still light years better than the real poverty i've seen in third world countries so i'm hardly impressed by all these horror stories about greeks begging for food in Athens or rumming in the garbage bins ... and this is even more true for the greeks now assaulting their banks to empty their bank accounts .. they had all the time to do it in the last 2-3 years but guess what will wait till the last day to save their money, too late as some banks have already announced they will close and good luck with that ..
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The countries are not being punished. They are being bailed out at a cost.
And Paul, speaking for myself, I don't think my comments are comical. Just my opinion on the situation. Greeks are fully responsible for the sh.it they're in. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Maybe fuelled by the fact that during a 24 hr stop over in Athens every single person i had to pay for a service or product scammed me. I was driven around Athens in a taxi going in circles to raise the fare. A barman charing me 18 guilders for a can of beer. Another taxi driver raising his fare at 22:50 when it should be at 23:00. The woman at the airport making us pay 100 guilders for a visa i didn't need. Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.
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Especially when you know how business is done outside of Europe, how salaries can be higher in so called third world countries then in a bunch of EU countries, when you see how easy a startup can emerge in HK whilst e.g. the Czech Republic is killing every Entrepreneur without a expensive and complicated legal entity with fraudulent and ridiculous taxes and social security obligation (fraudulent because the state offers almost nothing in return) then you wonder how long the EU can survive as a legal framework in a world which is every year more populated and competitive.
again, the solution is to migrate in countries where taxation is low and you're welcomed as an investor.
waiting for a miracle in your own village is silly, nothing will ever change too much in most of the EU, and of course how are you supposed to compete with asian producers who have low taxation and cheap workforce ? you can't, unless you stick with high-end products and that's exactly what we're doing in EU but it wont last forever, japan and korea are already ahead in high-tech and much more, soon even china will invade the few markets where we're still leaders, what's next ? we know very well what's next and there's nothing we can do apart moving to asia as well, the EU is rotten to the core and there's no hope it can be fixed because the whole system is not designed to sustain the unfair competition we're facing from asian producers and the social-democracy ideology is a dead man walking now that the sh-it is hitting the fan ... first it's greece and tomorrow will be france and UK as well, just a matter of time !
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4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.
... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...
Many of the people who can leave Greece and get work elsewhere have gone. The trouble is that this means the young, skilled, well-educated are leaving - doctors, nurses, IT specialists, probably even down to bricklayers. Left behind are the old, the unskilled and the unemployable. Who is going to pay for their upkeep? And what sort of country will you rebuild on these foundations?
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What I find very interesting about the puritanical "so you sow, so shall you reap" brigade is that may of those with this attitude are the same folks complain about the "unfairness" of the big bad agencies who reject their work or pay them buttons. The agencies are commercial bodies with no considerations other than the bottom line. The bad decisions that created the situation in Greece were not made by the folks who are suffering the most.
Is it fair to say then that, anyone who bought into the whole MS thing because they felt money was to be made, and now find their income eroded by increased competition and low prices are to blame for their situation?
Have some empathy guys because, like the Greeks, most of us have zero control of events that can land us in the *, and it could happen to any of us.
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... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...
absolutely.
i experienced it first hand since the last 15 years and i've seen things that would be unthinkable in the EU and US.
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The countries are not being punished. They are being bailed out at a cost.
Bailed out from debts artificially created. The Money does not go to the People or infrastructure or salaries. It goes to Investors and Bankers who actively provoked that situation:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi/troika-saved-banks-and-creditors-%E2%80%93-not-greece (https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi/troika-saved-banks-and-creditors-%E2%80%93-not-greece)
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/07/29/where-did-greeces-bailout-money-go/ (http://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/07/29/where-did-greeces-bailout-money-go/)
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/01/18/where-did-greeces-bailout-money-go-mostly-to-the-lenders/ (http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2015/01/18/where-did-greeces-bailout-money-go-mostly-to-the-lenders/)
http://www.attac.at/news/detailansicht/datum/2013/06/17/greek-bail-out-77-went-into-the-financial-sector.html (http://www.attac.at/news/detailansicht/datum/2013/06/17/greek-bail-out-77-went-into-the-financial-sector.html)
Greece is held hostage.
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Left behind are the old, the unskilled and the unemployable. Who is going to pay for their upkeep? And what sort of country will you rebuild on these foundations?
America, because they're responsible for the Greek military Junta in the 70s and actual greece is a consequence of that, not to mention the whole idea was about keeping greece out from the soviet sphere so they had to pay the greeks' loyalty generously and of course it got out of hand and now it's too late to complain, what's done is done !
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Greece cooked the books. They we're in a hole and needed EU money to survive. Of course debts were created. Its called a bail out. We never should have. We should have cut them out there and then. They're not held hostage. Nonsense. They can leave whenever they want. But they don't because of their greedy nature
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Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.
exactly, but as an experienced traveler i would also say that if you got ripped off so bad you must be ashamed too because you forgot to do your homeworks and to collect information about the scams and ripoffs going on in the place you were visiting.
if you think you had it so bad don't even try places like Mumbai or Saigon or Caracas ...
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And Paul, speaking for myself, I don't think my comments are comical.
I never suggested your comments were comical. I said that Juncker's description of the euro as being an engine of solidarity and prosperity was comical. Or, at least, it would be if it didn't show a complete lack of comprehension of what is going on in Southern Europe (and even France) by those in charge.
I am shocked by the rest of your comment. I must have spent close to two years in Greece, a month or two at a time, over the last 20 years and I can only recall one occasion when someone scammed me, that was back in '96. How you could have such a bad experience in 24 hours I really don't know, or perhaps it's because it was Athens and I spend very little of my time there.
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Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.
exactly, but as an experienced traveler i would also say that if you got ripped off so bad you must be ashamed too because you forgot to do your homeworks and to collect information about the scams and ripoffs going on in the place you were visiting.
if you think you had it so bad don't even try places like Mumbai or Saigon or Caracas ...
it was my first long haul flight. I may have been naive. Lessons learned Still they are crooks for trying
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Greece cooked the books. They we're in a hole and needed EU money to survive. Of course debts were created. Its called a bail out. We never should have. We should have cut them out there and then. They're not held hostage. Nonsense. They can leave whenever they want. But they don't because of their greedy nature
greece was a NATO member since 1952, they had no other alternatives and of course it will be bailed out again and again because otherwise it will end up into an alliance with Russia and Putin has been very clear last week about helping greece with open arms in exchange for long term oil/gas contracts.
no matter how bad greece will play its cards, they will never be left alone and somebody will take care.
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And Paul, speaking for myself, I don't think my comments are comical.
I never suggested your comments were comical. I said that Juncker's description of the euro as being an engine of solidarity and prosperity was comical. Or, at least, it would be if it didn't show a complete lack of comprehension of what is going on in Southern Europe (and even France) by those in charge.
I am shocked by the rest of your comment. I must have spent close to two years in Greece, a month or two at a time, over the last 20 years and I can only recall one occasion when someone scammed me, that was back in '96. How you could have such a bad experience in 24 hours I really don't know, or perhaps it's because it was Athens and I spend very little of my time there.
i gave been told Athens is a different animal compared to the rest of the country. Still i am reluctant to visit the islands because of that experience
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Have some empathy guys because, like the Greeks, most of us have zero control of events that can land us in the *, and it could happen to any of us.
+100
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Have some empathy guys because, like the Greeks, most of us have zero control of events that can land us in the *, and it could happen to any of us.
+100
read Cobalt's comments again. Its a culture of greed and corruption. Do you sympathise with that?
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it was my first long haul flight. I may have been naive. Lessons learned Still they are crooks for trying
there's no problem in being young and naive, what matters is to learn the lesson.
they can only scam us as long as we're young and naive but it doesnt last forever.
unfortunately as a tourist it's too easy to end up thinking you can trust no one but in some places that's 100% true, no matter if the locals who dont work in the tourism industry will welcome you in their homes and be super polite and happy to deal with foreigners, it's always a mixed feeling in the end and you get tired of being asked crazy prices by taxi drivers or shopkeepers and having to bargain till the last cents 100 times a day.
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. Its called a bail out. We never should have. We should have cut them out there and then. They're not held hostage. Nonsense. They can leave whenever they want. But they don't because of their greedy nature
It is, indeed, called a bail-out, but is that what it actually has been? If you take a mortgage on your house are you taking a bail-out, because that seems to be the equivalent to what has happened (up to now, it's about to change). The bail-out has involved lending money at interest from which, iirc, the ECB has so far made a profit of about four billion euros. In my lexicon a bail-out happens if someone gives you money for nothing to get you out of a hole, banks making loans at interest is not a bailout.
When you say "we never should have" you don't understand what the alternative was. The European banks loaned money to Greece because they could get a good rate of return on it (risk level was higher than for some other places). When the risk turned out to be all too real, the banks asked the taxpayers to buy the loans from them for more than they were worth, and the voters of Europe - via their democratic leaders - agreed to do this. Why? Well, because the entire European banking system would have collapsed if they didn't. So when the Troika protest about being "blackmailed" by Greece, remember that they didn't make murmur of protest when Deutsche Bank and its colleagues were the blackmailers.
As I said, you haven't made any personal contribution to Greece yet, but that is about to change when it drops out of the euro.
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Still i am reluctant to visit the islands because of that experience
That's a shame, you're missing some marvellous experiences - and it will be a really cheap place to go next year.
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44m ago
11:08
Austria: Greece would have to ASK to leave
Austrias finance minister, Hans Jörg Schelling, has flagged up that Greece would have to ask to leave the eurozone, and get the permission of the rest of Europe:
Greece would have to file a request to do so. The other EU countries would have to approve the request. Only then could Greece leave the eurozone.
There simply isnt a clear way for a country to simply exit the single currency.
Martin Schulz, president of the European Parliament, told my colleague Ian Traynor recently that any country leaving the euro must also leave the EU.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live (http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live)
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Greece cooked the books. They we're in a hole and needed EU money to survive. Of course debts were created. Its called a bail out. We never should have. We should have cut them out there and then. They're not held hostage. Nonsense. They can leave whenever they want. But they don't because of their greedy nature
This is like saying every muslim is a bloodthirsty terrorist - not true and a ridiculous statement.
Both of us live in a country that had the very same type of corrupt greedy leadership and the same corrupt and greedy bankers - I personally lost my job as a result of the crash. The difference is that Ireland is the European base for most of the biggest multi-nationals (and I am fortunate to have certain skills and experience that these guys want). Only for that, Ireland would be in the same position, I'd be unemployed and you'd be on the boat back to the Netherlands.
My own government's sycophantic attitude with the germans and behaviour towards greece is actually pretty sickening.
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Paul. I live in Ireland. I have experienced austerity measures although because I was single young and no children it was not hard to adjust
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Mike i am very black and white. But I understand there's innocent people in Greece. It doesn't change my opinion about the Greeks government and tax evaders
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Still i am reluctant to visit the islands because of that experience
That's a shame, you're missing some marvellous experiences - and it will be a really cheap place to go next year.
I will go in the near future as I do hope to change my opinion about the people
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
I wish more countries would hold referendums on important matters. Referendums are banksters and eurocrat's biggest fear. If greeks are smart enough, they will get out of the euro and start walking with their own legs. But yes Greece has itself to blame, that's what happens with left-wing populism.
It's unsustainable for different countries to share the same currency, especially with such disparity between them. The countries lose the ability to control inflation and money supply. Then you start seeing weird patterns, like everyday products costing triple in Spain than in Germany.
EUSSR was a bad idea from the start, except from freedom of movement. That's ruined though now with illegals getting a free pass. Why have visa policies at all if 3rd world muslim people get to live in Europe forever on taxpayer money. I liked Europe, but it's collapse is inevitable. Maybe eastern europeans can watch how western europe is slowly turning into a hellhole and wake up before it's too late.
I don't like referendums because people vote for what would be best for them now, not for the long term. So they often take the option that leads to problems in the future. There's the same problem with elections, all politicians ignore long term plans because they know they only need to get voted in now, so they promise things that will cause big problems in future years.
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The bail-out has involved lending money at interest from which, iirc, the ECB has so far made a profit of about four billion euros. In my lexicon a bail-out happens if someone gives you money for nothing to get you out of a hole, banks making loans at interest is not a bailout.
The most tragic of all is that the ECB could not send money to the countries in need directly with low interests.
Instead, they were lending money to the banks at <1% interests, and the banks in turn were buying public debt with 6, 7% and more!
Why wasn't the ECB lending money to the countries directly with the <1% of interests? Because this isn't about helping the countries in trouble, but to banks suck all the wealth they can taking advantage of the situation.
EU and the ECB do not serve the people, but the banks instead.
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Paul. I live in Ireland. I have experienced austerity measures although because I was single young and no children it was not hard to adjust
You didn't really experience austerity even if it was going on around you, other than paying the USC. If you were in the building trade as a simple navvie or even an engineer or architect and had a mortgage, taken out in good faith, and a few kids you would have had the full on experience and would be gone outta here. The high moral ground is often fine until one actually experience a given situation and then, suddenly, one becomes slightly more flexible.
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44m ago
11:08
Austria: Greece would have to ASK to leave
Austrias finance minister, Hans Jörg Schelling, has flagged up that Greece would have to ask to leave the eurozone, and get the permission of the rest of Europe:
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live[/url] ([url]http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live[/url])
The guardian's issued a correction - he was talking about leaving the EU, not the EZ. (And the Greeks don't want to leave either, but they're probably not going to have any choice about leaving the currency).
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...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.
I wish more countries would hold referendums on important matters. Referendums are banksters and eurocrat's biggest fear. If greeks are smart enough, they will get out of the euro and start walking with their own legs. But yes Greece has itself to blame, that's what happens with left-wing populism.
It's unsustainable for different countries to share the same currency, especially with such disparity between them. The countries lose the ability to control inflation and money supply. Then you start seeing weird patterns, like everyday products costing triple in Spain than in Germany.
EUSSR was a bad idea from the start, except from freedom of movement. That's ruined though now with illegals getting a free pass. Why have visa policies at all if 3rd world muslim people get to live in Europe forever on taxpayer money. I liked Europe, but it's collapse is inevitable. Maybe eastern europeans can watch how western europe is slowly turning into a hellhole and wake up before it's too late.
I don't like referendums because people vote for what would be best for them now, not for the long term. So they often take the option that leads to problems in the future. There's the same problem with elections, all politicians ignore long term plans because they know they only need to get voted in now, so they promise things that will cause big problems in future years.
Have to agree with you on that one. In modern societies, people are trained very effectively to be dumb and not think for themselves. In an enlightened society it would work better. But I still trust the people more than the government, better to have the choice of digging your own grave than just being thrown off the cliff.
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The countries are not being punished. They are being bailed out at a cost.
And Paul, speaking for myself, I don't think my comments are comical. Just my opinion on the situation. Greeks are fully responsible for the sh.it they're in. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Maybe fuelled by the fact that during a 24 hr stop over in Athens every single person i had to pay for a service or product scammed me. I was driven around Athens in a taxi going in circles to raise the fare. A barman charing me 18 guilders for a can of beer. Another taxi driver raising his fare at 22:50 when it should be at 23:00. The woman at the airport making us pay 100 guilders for a visa i didn't need. Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.
I think you got off at the wrong airport if they were all charging you in guilders
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I actually think if they have the drachme back it would really help them. Many greeks already live abroad and send money home. This is normal for many countries. When things improve at home, they go back with money and business experience. Just look at Poland.
The islands are lovely and if you live in a small hotel or pension the owners will make you feel part of the family and advise you which restaurant to go to or warn you about shops and places that will rip you off.
They can also organise cars and drivers for you.
However if you live in Greece you will have to deal with the amazing buraucracy etc...and you will see the countries problems in a different way. You are no longer a tourist.
But anyone who wants to support Greece, do your holidays there, buy clothes, souvenirs,wine. Or any products you can find in your shops at home.
Just take enough cash, because it looks like the banks will be opening and closing in an unpredictable way. And keep on an eye on the news for strikes. As soon as the banks close repeatedly, the strikes will follow.
I wouldnīt be surprised if after a few scary weeks, suddenly the government jumps into action, cuts down on military spending, pushes for an agreement with switzerland for the anonymous tax money...comes up with really creative ideas they can do to improve the economy...etc...they can work really fast if they want to.
I donīt believe Greece will fall into anarchy or civil war. There is always a lot of very public drama, but in the end they usually make it work. They are also used to a certain amount of chaos, that I would find unbearable, but they just shrug it off as normal daily life.
The "show" we have seen on TV in the last few months with Tsirpas, the going backward and forward, the insults, the walking out of meetings, contradictions, saying one thing to one partner, then flirting with another (russia) for public effect... is completely politics as usual for greeks. They think this is the "clever" way to work and run business or politics. You keep reading it in many Greek comments that they love the way Tsirpas is giving Europe a "show down". They believe his totally rude and unsuccessful behaviour is some kind of strength. They donīt care he doesnīt get results. But the emotions run high and their egos rise.
It just got translated to the European stage and we all had the opportunity to experience it.
Or did you think they run their other, daily politics in a different way? ;)
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In modern societies, people are trained very effectively to be dumb and not think for themselves. In an enlightened society it would work better. But I still trust the people more than the government, better to have the choice of digging your own grave than just being thrown off the cliff.
it's ludicrous that now greeks are considered guilty as a whole.
all they did in the last 40 yrs was supporting a social democratic government, exactly as everyone else did in the rest of europe, how is it their fault if their political leaders turned out to be a bunch of crooks ?
there's nothing they can do, actually they will throw you in jail if you become a nuisance as they did with many members of the greek right wing.
what exactly a law abiding is supposed to do ? finding a rifle (where ? how ?) and start shooting a few politicians eating in a restaurant ? or throwing a couple bombs in the bank next door ?
in practical terms, being a citizen just means you live inside a plantation and you've to follow all the rules or be punished, the only way out is to leave greece.
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finding a rifle (where ? how ?) and start shooting a few politicians
Errr ... try looking up a few chimneys in Cretan mountain villages?
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Right now...on BBC Radio4 Yanis Varoufakis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/on-air (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/on-air)
AND recording if you missed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0606vv1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0606vv1)
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Paul. I live in Ireland. I have experienced austerity measures although because I was single young and no children it was not hard to adjust
You didn't really experience austerity even if it was going on around you, other than paying the USC. If you were in the building trade as a simple navvie or even an engineer or architect and had a mortgage, taken out in good faith, and a few kids you would have had the full on experience and would be gone outta here. The high moral ground is often fine until one actually experience a given situation and then, suddenly, one becomes slightly more flexible.
Dont tell me what I did and did not experience. And do you think moving back home is easy or a solution or that I would bail when things get tough? How many time have you emigrated?
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Creative Varoufakis, totally contradictory statements by him within 2 minutes...can you imagine trying to work with this guy?
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EU can not fall apart because EU is artificial origin of masters over Atlantic...
EU doesn't have their own politics, what you can saw in Ukraine...
And who told you that your money goes to save Greece, he is lying... That is not your money for sure...
Recently I was in one of our bank to open some business account... Then they give me to sign a document as a proof that I haven't IRS number in USA...
WWTF???!
What local business account over Atlantic has with USA and their IRS?
They told me due to mutual agreement between my country and USA...
Then I asked, will people in USA will sign same paper for my country?
No answer!
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Nothing stopped Tsipras to go after the tax evaders and corruption, as he shouted loud and clear during the elections. Instead, he did nothing. Zero. On the contrary, under his incompetence, things worsen.
The previous government managed to run a primary budgetary surplus. Today, more than one year of efforts has been lost. Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.
What is also interesting is that the Greek constitution forbids a referendum on fiscal matters. And a referendum must be based on laws approved by the parliament. There is no such law. But Tsipras probably didn't know the details, when he announce it.
He is busy bluffing at his poker game, instead of running the country.
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Good read...
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/soapbox-greeks-beware-of-adults-in-the-room-31335068.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/soapbox-greeks-beware-of-adults-in-the-room-31335068.html)
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Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.
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... not true - if they stop paying dept - there budget is in plus...
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Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.
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... not true - if they stop paying dept - there budget is in plus...
Do your homework:
"Under existing bailout targets, Athens was supposed to run a primary surplus government receipts net of spending, excluding interest payments on sovereign debt of 3 per cent of GDP in 2015.
With the large surplus now turning into a sizeable deficit, Greeces debt levels would begin to spike again"
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Dont tell me what I did and did not experience. And do you think moving back home is easy or a solution or that I would bail when things get tough? How many time have you emigrated?
your li
Are you saying I'm wrong and you did have a mortgage and family and had your livelihood yanked from under you? Did you have to live under the cut backs while depending on the pittance the state provides? If the answer is no, you haven't experienced the effects of austerity.
I have never emigrated but would do so in a heartbeat if that was needed and I certainly meant no disrespect in suggesting that you would probably have done so in the circumstances I outlined.
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What is also interesting is that the Greek constitution forbids a referendum on fiscal matters. And a referendum must be based on laws approved by the parliament. There is no such law.
In case anyone doubts it, here is the Greek constitution article about referendum:
"A referendum on Bills passed by Parliament regulating important social matters, with the exception of the fiscal ones shall be proclaimed by decree by the President of the Republic, if this is decided by three-fifths of the total number of its members, following a proposal of two-fifths of the total number of its members, and as the Standing Orders and the law for the application of the present paragraph provide"
It makes perfect sense to prevent a referendum on fiscal matters.
And who dares to say that the bailout agrement is not a fiscal matter?
Another Tsipras bluff.
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Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.
two options :
1 - print New Drachmas and start using a dual currency
2 - join Russia's Custom Union and use the Ruble, but NATO won't allow it
as for bribery and corruption, this hot debate is going on in Greece since the times of Plato's "Republic" 2500 years ago... i wouldn't worry too much, in the worst scenario greece will follow the same fate of Argentina or Zimbabwe.
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Dont tell me what I did and did not experience. And do you think moving back home is easy or a solution or that I would bail when things get tough? How many time have you emigrated?
your li
Are you saying I'm wrong and you did have a mortgage and family and had your livelihood yanked from under you? Did you have to live under the cut backs while depending on the pittance the state provides? If the answer is no, you haven't experienced the effects of austerity.
I have never emigrated but would do so in a heartbeat if that was needed and I certainly meant no disrespect in suggesting that you would probably have done so in the circumstances I outlined.
I am not saying anything other than dont judge because you dont know me.
I didnt experience the things you mention, but I did have to sell my car because I couldnt afford it anymore. I had to move out of an apartment where I lived on my own and go back to renting a room in a shared house and I did have my salary frozen for 3 years. I also went through all the budgets as you did. Like I said, I could cope with the situation, but dont say I havent experience it.
Anyhoo, its off topic.
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@ Semmick
Well, it's really curious that you ask others not to judge you, but you keep throwing stones at others... Claiming that others do not know your story, but somehow you seem to know all about others...
And considering what you said multiple times in multiple threads about the people of other countries in the current debt crisis and their responsibility in their situation, I think it would be honest from your part to recognize that you've been in that sad situation because you are lazy, corrupt and responsible to elect or support parties that destroyed the economy and put you in that situation.
That is your clear stance about the countries in trouble.
Sorry if I sound to harsh, but I'm just using your self-proclaimed black and white view of the world. At this moment I cannot distinguish you from a lazy Greek, Portuguese, Irish or from any other PIGS. You must have done something really wrong to mess up your life and put yourself in that position...
OR!
You may look at your personal case and consider how much control you had in the events that led you to sell your car, move to a room and have the salary frozen, including the international and government political and economical decisions.
And then look at the people from other countries and realize that the vast majority of them, were in the same situation and with the same control over their fate as yourself.
I'm guessing you're pretty Blank & White at judging others, but I' feeling a palette with of many shades of gray when it comes to you...
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Greek banks closed tomorrow - possibly for a week, stock market closed too.
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Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.
And it was not me who called anyone lazy.
If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.
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Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.
And it was not me who called anyone lazy.
If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.
Well, when I read the things and insinuations you made about Portugal at another thread believe me I felt it personal. If you blame a whole people without distinction and simpathy it becomes personal because you're also talking about me. So why are you bothered to taste the same medicine?
Hey it's black and white, right?
So why don't assume your personal responsibilities in the crash of Ireland? Why are you blaming the house sector and banks, when you dismiss other people saying similar things about their own countries and organizations?
You constantly put everyone single one of a whole nation in the same boat, assuming everyone fits your per-conceived opinion and show no signs of mercy for, not only those that fight for decades the path that lead here, but innocent bystanders like the children.
You're very quick to condemn whole nations, but quicker to ignore how much control people actually have in the destinies of their own countries, very quick to ignore the mock-democracies supported and manipulated by the EU, and the destructive demands this corrupt and megalomaniac organization make over smaller countries with total disregard for any type of solidarity in the protection of their economies!
In the middle of the 2000's, the poorest region of Portugal suffered from starving. Yes, STARVING. The Red-Cross, in a well intentioned but humiliating action went to the Alentejo region to distribute food like they do in Africa. The Alentejo people sent them away and refused to accept the help, saying that they didn't need food, they needed WORK! And don't worry, an Alentejano will starve to death before letting their children suffer.
These are the people that are ignored by the German-French elected governments of Lisbon. Governments that bow to every demand from Brussels, Paris and Berlin and use the money they receive from them to sustain an octupus-type control of the state to destroy any opposition.
What is happening to Portugal has been announced and fought for decades by those who resist the mob in the government, and have taken these issues to the rest of Europe in every way they can.
THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IGNORED BY THE SAME PEOPLE THAT NOW PUNISH US, SLANDERING THE PORTUGUESE PEOPLE.
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I never said anything about Portugal.
And you calling me a pig is ok in your book.
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I never said anything about Portugal.
And you calling me a pig is ok in your book.
Yes you did, at another thread. You've blamed the whole population for the economical and political situation of Portugal ignoring how engineered things are around here.
And I DID NOT call you a pig. I said, in the analogy that you were not different from any other PIGS. Look up in the Internet what that "loving" acronym stands for. Or I'll save you the trouble:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_%28economics%29
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I don't recall ever saying anything about Portugal.
No need to be condescending because I don't know what pigs means. In your rant i didn't distinguish it from all the other name calling and incorrect attributions.
Enough with your personal attacks.
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Hey guys...TIME OUT!
Back to the subject and Zorba The Greek! 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeNsr_nQEfE&list=RD0U93xGU059c&index=14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeNsr_nQEfE&list=RD0U93xGU059c&index=14)
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You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?
Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.
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Drinks for ALL!
19:01
TSIPRAS ANNOUNCES CAPITAL CONTROLS AND BANK HOLIDAY
Its official, capital controls are being imposed in Greece, as the financial crisis takes an even more alarming turn tonight.
Speaking on live TV, Alexis Tsipras is saying that the Greek central bank has been forced to recommend a bank holiday and the introduction of capital controls.
He blames the ECB, and other institutions, for trying to obstruct the democratic referendum he has called for next Sunday. This is a insult that shames European democracy, he says.
Tsipras also appeals for calm, and he insists that bank deposits are secure.
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Greek banks closed tomorrow - possibly for a week, stock market closed too.
Probably for the best. Capital controls coming too, they should have done that a long, long time ago. If everybody takes out all their money you might as well go to the barter system or gold.
You have to be able to make transfers, pay salaries and without money the banks have to close.
I would expect banks to open and close for quite a while, so you need cash if you travel there.
But of course just a few hours ago varoufakis said this would not happen...
Now they say pensions and salaries are safe...and then they will start paying "just a little less this month..." Etc...
And of course blame it all on the germans. They hate us so much, but keep expecting us and the rest of horrible europe to keep sending them money...
There will be new elections coming, varoufakis will go back to university, tsirpas will position himself as the misunderstood tragic hero and keep attacking whoever wins the next election as controlled by outsiders...
However going back to the Drachme will be useful. I just hope there won't be too many strikes that scare the tourists away.
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I don't recall ever saying anything about Portugal.
No need to be condescending because I don't know what pigs means. In your rant i didn't distinguish it from all the other name calling and incorrect attributions.
Enough with your personal attacks.
I never attacked or insulted you. I've just pointed out the hypocrisy of your arguments, where you have a set of values to the others, and another one for yourself. Others are all guilty, but you are just a victim.
Well, if you got disturbed when the game was turned around and you were solely blamed for your situation just like you do to other without sympathy, I think I may have passed the message.
Anyway, I can only say that I am sorry for your situation and wish you wouldn't have to go through that and that you recover, just like all the other victims of this horror story the EU is.
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Again, I haven't claimed any values for myself nor for others. I never claimed to be a victim either. All your arguments are fallacies and distorted truths. Its ok for you to call the whole of the EU a manipulative mob, but when I generalise my opinion I am a hypocrite. And you base your attack over comments regarding Portugal I never made.
And dont you worry about me, if you had read my comments properly, you would have known that I am doing fine.
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"A man needs a little madness, or else... he never dares cut the rope and be free." ― Nikos Kazantzakis
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Whats going on here seriously it would be almost funny what has been expressed here as well as the the manner of how if most of them wasn't downright scary and deeply ignorant.
There is way too much stereotype,amoralism,misanthopy,and mostly neolibertarian media agenda to make for a decent conversation,not that some of leftist views expressed (few expeptions)
aren't naive at best.
So i will express my thoughts in the same manner and level of dialogue.
Since some of you are flattering yourselves on your comprehension of politics and based logic,and since we are speaking about Greece
i hope you realize that Tsipras is doing exactly what Merkel is doing at this point (and both have been doing for the past weeks).
Playing a "chess" game where they both have to sacrifice pawns (as a collateral damage or simply to get rid of inner circle opposition) ,while convincing their useful idiots
(people,politicians and elites alike) that there is an urgency in one hand but no serious collateral damage on the other if things go sour.
Well fear not.Greece will propably sign a 3rd memorandum as pretty much planned since february, and unless things go sour Eurozone will keep existing,but just for a bit,because
its coming to an end and sooner than he have expected.
And to be honest i dont really care despite the implications.
There are things in life we can do and things we cant but being an idiot is a cruel way to live -in prosperity or not-
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I really donīt see this as a showdown between merkel and tsirpas.
Tsirpas is a lot more important than merkel, he represents his country. The european union is a huge group of countries and to always try to pretend Merkel controls them all is pretty insulting to everyone else. I mean France, Spain, The UK, Poland, Austria,Lithuania...they all canīt have an opinion?
Why do you think none of the other governments is supporting Tsirpas and his ideas. Not one single country?
Tsirpas is just using merkel as the boogyman/woman to create a big alien monster for emotional effect.
Just read around various media across europe and all the comments you can find. Or just british papers, there is a huge expatriate group of greeks living there. See what they have to say about tsirpas. They are much harsher than anything written here. They hate him.
anyway, the referendum is coming, let the greek people decide what they want.
They donīt need to take loans from abroad anyway, they can put a tax on the rich, including all the money hiding abroad and get a huge loan from the church. Cut military spending.
Get their own currency back and sail in the ship they built themselves.
They really donīt need more money from Europe and if their government thinks loans from Europe are toxic, just donīt take them.
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Greeks have been known to be notoriously lazy and hot headed as well and i am no exception,after all i always had a hard time staying on a discussion expecially when my discussants
believe that they make simple logical and clean points but in reality they mix in a huge amount of ascertations,convenient truths,media agenda,racial stereotypes,simplistic views etc etc that would take a huge amount of time to break down one by one.
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I have formed an opinion based on what I have read, seen and experienced over the years, and then post it here in a 5 sentence comment. Of course its a simplified view. I am not here to write an essay. You can agree or disagree with my comments, I dont care. But when people start attacking others and be condescending because of that personal opinion, the discussion is over for me. I do want to defend myself when people keep dishing out attacking comments.
Apparently I am not as smart or politically astute as some people here, so I will crawl back under my rock, when you can continue the conversation with the other intellectuals sitting on your high horses.
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EURO sinks! - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-28/euro-sinks-as-greek-exit-risk-jumps-kiwi-falls-gold-holds-gain (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-28/euro-sinks-as-greek-exit-risk-jumps-kiwi-falls-gold-holds-gain)
Which Countries Stand to Lose Big from a Greek Default?
Germany, naturally, would bear the largest potential loss58 billion, or 1.9% of GDP. But as a percentage of GDP, little Slovenia has the most at risk2.6%.
The most worrying case among the creditors, though, is heavily indebted Italy, which would bear up to 39 billion in losses, or 2.4% of GDP.....
http://blogs.cfr.org/geographics/2015/05/07/grexit/ (http://blogs.cfr.org/geographics/2015/05/07/grexit/)
Semmick Photo, stay here pls! Your opinion is valued! Diversity is always good.
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Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.
And it was not me who called anyone lazy.
If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.
The Irish government did a great job kissing German banker ass at the expense of its weakest citizens - not my definition of a great job. Sometimes moral considerations supersede legal responsibilities. If your children are hungry you feed them before paying the banks (speaking metaphorically).
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Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.
And it was not me who called anyone lazy.
If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.
The Irish government did a great job kissing German banker ass at the expense of its weakest citizens - not my definition of a great job. Sometimes moral considerations supersede legal responsibilities. If your children are hungry you feed them before paying the banks (speaking metaphorically).
Feed them with what Mike? Ireland needed 70 billion to stay afloat. I fully understand what you are saying, and I agree, but if there is no money, you wont feed anybody. Anyway, we obviously have a difference of opinion. Thats fine.
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I am not here to write an essay.
Here is the essay you didn't write, probably written by a desperate Greek:
"Dear Fellow Europeans,
Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croats, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, French, Germans, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxembourgians Maltese, Dutch, Pols, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes and British,
Please allow me to explain to you what has been happening to my country in the last few months and how a group of left wing fanatic ideologues, extremists and opportunists, allied with racists, anti-Semites and neo-* have been leading my nation towards an economic and political Armageddon.
On January 25, after 5 years of economic recession, two bailout packages by the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), an unprecedented unemployment rate that today exceeds 27% and a significant loss of the average household income, the Greek people (unwisely) decided to vote into power the Radical Left party of SYRIZA. SYRIZA is comprised of Marxist, Stalinist, Trotskyist and Maoist Communists, Anarchists, lots of opportunists without a clear ideology and Socialists, leftovers from the, once powerful, Socialist party of Greece. Before the elections, SYRIZA exceeded in populism any political campaign in living memory. They literally promised everything to everyone. They took advantage of peoples despair and anger against the traditional, mainstream political parties that are, to a large extend, responsible for the Greek economic crisis. However, in every chance, they confirmed that they would not risk the countrys membership in the Eurozone and the EU. The partys leader and current Prime Minister, Mr Tsipras, in his teens and early twenties, was a member of the Orthodox-Stalinist Communist party of Greece and has not work a single day of his life.
His coalition government partner is a right wing, extreme populist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, psychopathic party, the Independent Greeks, led by an insane fellow who believes in Chemtrails and other conspiracy theories (I kid you not!). He also believes that Greece can seek financial support from countries, such as Russia, China and Iran.
Before 2010, these parties would barely enter parliament reaching the 3% threshold of the popular vote. Exactly like in Germany in the interwar perion and for the same reason (an economic depression), extreme parties have flourished and populism has triumphed in Greece. SYRIZA became the first party with 36% of the popular vote and the Independent Greeks gained another 5%, giving them a parliamentary majority.
What followed was 5 months of so-called negotiations, during which the Minister of Finance, Mr Yanis Varoufakis, a Professor of Economics, specialized in Game Theory and an endless appetite for personal publicity, changed his position on a weekly basis and proposed to the Eurogroup (the Eurozone Finance Ministers assembly) unachievable economic targets for an economy that was back into recession after a trimester of economic growth in late 2014. In the meantime, in Greece, the coalition government increased public spending by hiring thousands people into the public sector. This completely derailed the economy and resulted in a deficit of more than 5 billion euros. Additionally, there was a widespread media campaign to present the EU, the ECB and the IMF as bloodthirsty monsters that hate the Greek people and wish to starve and humiliate us. A lot of people in Greece actually BELIEVE that this is the true intention of our EU partners!
Political parties, politicians, journalists or even regular citizens, like myself, who defend a United Europe and wish us a part of the Eurozone are characterized as traitors and enemies of the people.
On Friday, June 26, Mr Tsipras, after failing to reach a compromise with the EU and the IMF, called a snap referendum for Sunday, July 5, in which he is asking the people to vote YES or NO to the following question: Do you approve the technical proposal of the Creditors of Greece (The EU, ECB and IMF) for the extension of the bailout programme? This proposal, submitted to the Greek government a few days ago, includes reduction of public spending, increase of the VAT and liberal economic reforms. Keep in mind that increased taxation was proposed to our Creditors by the Greek government itself. The question of the referendum is dishonest and deceiving. The average citizen, misinformed and confused from five months of conflicting information and the anti-European rhetoric of the coalition government, largely unaware of the dire situation of the economy and the consequences of his vote, angry by increased taxes and pension cuts, will naturally vote NO. The actual question that needs to be answered is whether the people want the country in the Euro with reforms or a National Currency without reforms. Of course the coalition government will not put the real question to the vote, they would never take responsibility, they will always blame the others.
What the Greek government does with this referendum is nothing less than a political extortion towards the entire EU. On Saturday, June 27, this extortion was put on a vote in the Greek parliament and won a majority support by the MPs of the Radical Left party, its right-wing populist partner and the far-right racist Neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn (the shame of my country, or at least one of the recent shames). This broad anti-European coalition is officially leading my country into the abyss of extremism, populism, international isolation and bankruptcy. This should not come as a total surprise. Mr Tsipras and many SYRIZA party-members have declared, more than once, that Venezuela should serve as a model of Democracy for Greece. SYRIZA recognizes its ideological counterparts in Latin-American Socialist semi-dictatorships.
Mr Tsipras and his party, together with their lunatic partners, deceived the Greek people with false promises and stole the popular vote. They then bombarded the public with a coordinated anti-European campaign of lies. Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.
Please share this message and inform your friends about what is really happening in Greece and what is at stake.
Constantinos Kyriakis"
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I am not here to write an essay.
Here is the essay you didn't write, probably written by a desperate Greek:
"Dear Fellow Europeans,
Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croats, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, French, Germans, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxembourgians Maltese, Dutch, Pols, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes and British,
Please allow me to explain to you what has been happening to my country in the last few months and how a group of left wing fanatic ideologues, extremists and opportunists, allied with racists, anti-Semites and neo-* have been leading my nation towards an economic and political Armageddon.
On January 25, after 5 years of economic recession, two bailout packages by the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), an unprecedented unemployment rate that today exceeds 27% and a significant loss of the average household income, the Greek people (unwisely) decided to vote into power the Radical Left party of SYRIZA. SYRIZA is comprised of Marxist, Stalinist, Trotskyist and Maoist Communists, Anarchists, lots of opportunists without a clear ideology and Socialists, leftovers from the, once powerful, Socialist party of Greece. Before the elections, SYRIZA exceeded in populism any political campaign in living memory. They literally promised everything to everyone. They took advantage of peoples despair and anger against the traditional, mainstream political parties that are, to a large extend, responsible for the Greek economic crisis. However, in every chance, they confirmed that they would not risk the countrys membership in the Eurozone and the EU. The partys leader and current Prime Minister, Mr Tsipras, in his teens and early twenties, was a member of the Orthodox-Stalinist Communist party of Greece and has not work a single day of his life.
His coalition government partner is a right wing, extreme populist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, psychopathic party, the Independent Greeks, led by an insane fellow who believes in Chemtrails and other conspiracy theories (I kid you not!). He also believes that Greece can seek financial support from countries, such as Russia, China and Iran.
Before 2010, these parties would barely enter parliament reaching the 3% threshold of the popular vote. Exactly like in Germany in the interwar perion and for the same reason (an economic depression), extreme parties have flourished and populism has triumphed in Greece. SYRIZA became the first party with 36% of the popular vote and the Independent Greeks gained another 5%, giving them a parliamentary majority.
What followed was 5 months of so-called negotiations, during which the Minister of Finance, Mr Yanis Varoufakis, a Professor of Economics, specialized in Game Theory and an endless appetite for personal publicity, changed his position on a weekly basis and proposed to the Eurogroup (the Eurozone Finance Ministers assembly) unachievable economic targets for an economy that was back into recession after a trimester of economic growth in late 2014. In the meantime, in Greece, the coalition government increased public spending by hiring thousands people into the public sector. This completely derailed the economy and resulted in a deficit of more than 5 billion euros. Additionally, there was a widespread media campaign to present the EU, the ECB and the IMF as bloodthirsty monsters that hate the Greek people and wish to starve and humiliate us. A lot of people in Greece actually BELIEVE that this is the true intention of our EU partners!
Political parties, politicians, journalists or even regular citizens, like myself, who defend a United Europe and wish us a part of the Eurozone are characterized as traitors and enemies of the people.
On Friday, June 26, Mr Tsipras, after failing to reach a compromise with the EU and the IMF, called a snap referendum for Sunday, July 5, in which he is asking the people to vote YES or NO to the following question: Do you approve the technical proposal of the Creditors of Greece (The EU, ECB and IMF) for the extension of the bailout programme? This proposal, submitted to the Greek government a few days ago, includes reduction of public spending, increase of the VAT and liberal economic reforms. Keep in mind that increased taxation was proposed to our Creditors by the Greek government itself. The question of the referendum is dishonest and deceiving. The average citizen, misinformed and confused from five months of conflicting information and the anti-European rhetoric of the coalition government, largely unaware of the dire situation of the economy and the consequences of his vote, angry by increased taxes and pension cuts, will naturally vote NO. The actual question that needs to be answered is whether the people want the country in the Euro with reforms or a National Currency without reforms. Of course the coalition government will not put the real question to the vote, they would never take responsibility, they will always blame the others.
What the Greek government does with this referendum is nothing less than a political extortion towards the entire EU. On Saturday, June 27, this extortion was put on a vote in the Greek parliament and won a majority support by the MPs of the Radical Left party, its right-wing populist partner and the far-right racist Neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn (the shame of my country, or at least one of the recent shames). This broad anti-European coalition is officially leading my country into the abyss of extremism, populism, international isolation and bankruptcy. This should not come as a total surprise. Mr Tsipras and many SYRIZA party-members have declared, more than once, that Venezuela should serve as a model of Democracy for Greece. SYRIZA recognizes its ideological counterparts in Latin-American Socialist semi-dictatorships.
Mr Tsipras and his party, together with their lunatic partners, deceived the Greek people with false promises and stole the popular vote. They then bombarded the public with a coordinated anti-European campaign of lies. Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.
Please share this message and inform your friends about what is really happening in Greece and what is at stake.
Constantinos Kyriakis"
Nice political speech! Are you fan of Νέα Δημοκρατία or Πανελλήνιο Σοσιαλιστικό Κίνημα?
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Nice political speech! Are you fan of Νέα Δημοκρατία or Πανελλήνιο Σοσιαλιστικό Κίνημα?
I have no connection with Greece, let alone with PASOK (as per google translate), except for my falling euro savings.
Are you a Syriza member?
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Nice political speech! Are you fan of Νέα Δημοκρατία or Πανελλήνιο Σοσιαλιστικό Κίνημα?
I have no connection with Greece, let alone with PASOK (as per google translate).
Are you a Syriza member?
Of course not! My only connection with Greece is our family house left many years ago!
Best
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worst scenario, the ECB will "print" 200 billion euros to compensate the creditors and dont worry nobody will bat an eyelid as they did the same things years ago to save the banks ... of course the euro will lose some value but over time things will get back to normal, same as happened to the Ruble after a few months.
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Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.
relax, if the sh-it hits the fan the army will take over and impose a new military junta.
and by the way, it would be the best outcome, the Junta in Thailand did excellent things in the last two years and their popular support is strong.
while we're busy talking about greece nobody is looking Ukraine which is the real dead man walking and can't even pay the salaries without begging to their euro/american puppetmasters.
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while we're busy talking about greece nobody is looking Ukraine which is the real dead man walking and can't even pay the salaries without begging to their euro/american puppetmasters.
Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)
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Greece is like a person who has maxed out debt on multiple credit cards and blames everyone except himself. Greece has borrowed, borrowed, borrowed, spent, spent, spent, without the national income needed to support the spending and borrowing. Now they are blaming everyone except themselves. They continue to pay generous pensions even though they don't have the national income to justify those payments. They refuse to increase taxes, reduce pensions and government expenditure, and just keep blaming the Germans. They are bankrupt but refuse to accept that it is their own fault. They want to continue spending and borrowing and have the EU community pay for it. They have no intention of ever repaying the loans, and for some reason they believe it is their God given right to have the rest of Europe subsidise their lifestyles without making any effort to change.
Greece is basically a third world Country of just 11 million people living above their means. There is little industry, little willingness to work, and avoidance of taxes appears to be a national sport.
The ECB, IMF and Germany have now said 'enough is enough'. "We are not going to continue to lend you money unless you make an effort to balance your books, collect taxes, and run the Country with a budget surplus so that loans can be repaid". Greece has refused to do this, as it just expects Europe to keep paying, paying, paying and lending, lending, lending.
Greece is a bankrupt Country, it refuses to stop spending, collect taxes properly and increase VAT to balance the budget deficits, and the sooner it is kicked out of Europe the better the European finances will be. Enough is enough. Goodbye Greece - get out of Europe and stop wasting away the money made by hard working people in other European Countries.
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Greece bought this upon themselves.
Their laws are lax and everyone is a tax evader. Take for example: Nobody pays property tax and they're getting around loopholes that tax on completed houses, so everyone leaves a part of their house incomplete, avoiding property tax completely.
Nearly everyone who is self-employed rarely pay taxes. They all claim that their earnings are going into paying debt...some even claim that over 100% of their earnings are for paying debt, so they can avoid taxes. If the government can't collect tax from anyone, how can the government pay for anything?
When you add that fact that Greeks retired early and granted massive pensions during retirement, you can see why the country is broke. The Greeks are not lazy, they're just greedy and known tax evaders.
The government need to cut down the pensions and come down hard on all the tax evaders. Start arresting people if they have to...set a few examples. Then we'll see a more prosperous and self-sufficient Greece.
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At least we can all weep for the poor hedge fund managers who have lost their shirts when they thought they were going to make a killing: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0)
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At least we can all weep for the poor hedge fund managers who have lost their shirts when they thought they were going to make a killing: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0[/url] ([url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0[/url])
Precisely...
I hope the leaders do have plan B ready. :-\
Worth watching - filmed in 2012 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=203&v=Z1LCBp0twLE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=203&v=Z1LCBp0twLE)
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At least we can all weep for the poor hedge fund managers who have lost their shirts when they thought they were going to make a killing: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0[/url] ([url]http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/business/dealbook/panic-among-hedge-fund-investors-in-greece.html?_r=0[/url])
Precisely...
I hope the lads do have that plan B ready. :-\
Worth watching - filmed in 2012 - [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=203&v=Z1LCBp0twLE[/url] ([url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=203&v=Z1LCBp0twLE[/url])
I love the wording used in that article. These guys are "brave" they are "hardy", they are "luminaries" because they "make bets", while the Greeks by comparison are "panicky" and are "stashing cash" or "bulging bags of gold coins" .... yeah, you can hardly move in Greek houses for the cupboards ripped from the walls by the weight of gold, quite different from the impoverished state of the poor hedge fund investors.
And whose fault is it if they "make bets" and lose? Why, the Greeks, of course!
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Greece is like a person who has maxed out debt on multiple credit cards and blames everyone except himself.
well, Syryza has never been in power, it was the Pasok pushing greece down the drain.
the greek people just adapted to the local environment.
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Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)
EU and NATO are the root cause for this mess, and greece is merely the tip of the iceberg, do you think other EU countries like romania or poland are in a better position ?
it's just greece's turn, next year it will be somebody else turn, their plan is following their agenda, small nations will cease to exist and become just a "region".
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Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)
EU and NATO are the root cause for this mess,
No, the shoehorning of Greece into the euro, which is an economic mis-match is the root cause of the mess. It distorted interest rates and drove debt south into Greece and other Med countries and cash north into Germany, France and presumably the UK, too. The money the North lent to the south was then recycled North again in the purchase of luxury goods, making repayment of the loans almost impossible. The South thought the good times were a permanent feature of euro-membership, not an artificial effect of misaligned economies, while the North thought it was doing well because of a superior work ethic and higher moral values, not because of an artificial effect of the euro in cycling debt south and money north. When the crash happened the South still believed the euro was the harbinger of eternal prosperity and the North couldn't see any reason why it should pay to subsidise lazy feckless Southerners who would have been rich if only they had the same superior morality as the North.
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Sh*t is about to get real, take a look at the ATM lines:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-28/ignoring-tsipras-plea-calm-greeks-storm-atms-stores-gas-stations (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-28/ignoring-tsipras-plea-calm-greeks-storm-atms-stores-gas-stations)
Still surprised of how many people left their money at the local banks. 60 euro withdrawal limit now.
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Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)
EU and NATO are the root cause for this mess,
No, the shoehorning of Greece into the euro, which is an economic mis-match is the root cause of the mess. It distorted interest rates and drove debt south into Greece and other Med countries and cash north into Germany, France and presumably the UK, too. The money the North lent to the south was then recycled North again in the purchase of luxury goods, making repayment of the loans almost impossible. The South thought the good times were a permanent feature of euro-membership, not an artificial effect of misaligned economies, while the North thought it was doing well because of a superior work ethic and higher moral values, not because of an artificial effect of the euro in cycling debt south and money north. When the crash happened the South still believed the euro was the harbinger of eternal prosperity and the North couldn't see any reason why it should pay to subsidise lazy feckless Southerners who would have been rich if only they had the same superior morality as the North.
Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.
Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.
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No, the shoehorning of Greece into the euro, which is an economic mis-match is the root cause of the mess. It distorted interest rates and drove debt south into Greece and other Med countries and cash north into Germany, France and presumably the UK, too. The money the North lent to the south was then recycled North again in the purchase of luxury goods, making repayment of the loans almost impossible. The South thought the good times were a permanent feature of euro-membership, not an artificial effect of misaligned economies, while the North thought it was doing well because of a superior work ethic and higher moral values, not because of an artificial effect of the euro in cycling debt south and money north. When the crash happened the South still believed the euro was the harbinger of eternal prosperity and the North couldn't see any reason why it should pay to subsidise lazy feckless Southerners who would have been rich if only they had the same superior morality as the North.
Could not have said it better. Thanks for this post.
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So France is a nordic country now and Ireland lies in the south.
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Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.
Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.
Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.
As for "north" and "south" - sheesh, it's not about the pedantic niceties of geography.
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Another "sound" economical decision: free public transport for everyone!
http://en.protothema.gr/free-public-transport-for-everyone/
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.
Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.
Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html)
Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.
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Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.
Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.
Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.
[url]http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html[/url])
Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.
+this
Countries whose companies have invested the most in Greece: Germany, Italy, France....
http://qz.com/439703/german-companies-have-bought-up-the-most-greek-businesses/ (http://qz.com/439703/german-companies-have-bought-up-the-most-greek-businesses/)
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Greece presented the EU with incorrect figures and lied about their financial state. If there was any shoehorning done, it was because Greece painted a rosy picture. I dont see why the EU has to be blamed for the mess in Greece.
Its like jailing a person for leaving their home unlocked instead of jailing the burglar for entering it.
Yes, and the EU knew the figures were fiddled and didn't care because the political aim of achieving ever wider union, with the euro as the currency. So it's more like inviting a known burglar into your house and showing him the combination of the safe before you go out for the evening.
[url]http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html[/url] ([url]http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/united-kingdom/eu-knew-greece-cooked-its-books-when-it-joined-eurozone-243927.html[/url])
Well you are right. So the EU is very much to blame here. This does change my perspective about the EU and it's role in this disaster.
As an aside, I'd also argue that the disaster may well have been an inevitable consequence of serious misjudgements made in the 1990s and maybe even 80s. Even the electoral revolt that brought Syriza to power after five years of austerity may have been historically inevitable, in which case the favoured bogey-people - Tsipras, Merkel or Juncker, depending on your perspective - really aren't to blame at all, they are just marionettes. If Asimov had written the script this would have been a "Seldon Moment" and the god would jump out of the machine and show us all the one route out of the dismal labyrinth.
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Balance of Trade between Portugal and the Countries of the European Union:
1985: +(plus) 10 million euros
1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros
2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros
Between these dates the EU:
- restricted the portuguese agriculture with severe quotas and subsidies to those stopping the production (with the restrictive quotas many hardly had alternatives to accept the subsidies)
- restricted the portuguese fishing industry with severe quotas and subsidies to those who dismantled the boats (the quotas and the opening of the portuguese sea to powerful foreign fishing fleets that depleted the quotas quickly made living from fishing impossible to many)
- the dismantling of the industry with the consecutive opening of the borders to products from China, India, etc., dropping the custom taxes and making an industry that had to meet the European work conditions standard impossible to sustain.
- the introduction of the Euro currency that made impossible for portuguese economy to compete since the country no longer had the flexibility of the national currency
- the imposed savage privatization of the strategic sectors which gave a boost to the funds of the state and making possible to mascarade the real situation of the portuguese economy and debt, but led to huge medium and long term loss of revenue to the state. Profitable companies no longer sent their profits to the state but to privates.
- the state (central and local) started to hire a large number of people to cope with the unemployment
- with the planed destruction of the productive sectors of the economy, the state had to fund itself, and the European Bankers started to lend money to Portugal which obviously had to be repaid with interests.
- This way, the puppet masters of this fake union won in three ways. They killed the potential competition that another state could bring to their products, they found a new market to sell their products including the ones we didn't need to import a few years ago, and started to profit from the loans on the public debt.
The EU knew all this since it was in the back giving orders to the corrupt portuguese politicians.
And if they knew about the Greeks cooking the books, they had no doubts about the real situation of the portuguese economy and the unsustainability to keep a low debt in a country that stopped producing!
They knew this was going to happen sooner or latter, and when Portugal defaults (real chances) they will lose some money which will be nevertheless compensated by the profits made along decades
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This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
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Balance of Trade between Portugal and the Countries of the European Union:
1985: +(plus) 10 million euros
1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros
2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros
Between these dates the EU:
- restricted the portuguese agriculture with severe quotas and subsidies to those stopping the production (with the restrictive quotas many hardly had alternatives to accept the subsidies)
- restricted the portuguese fishing industry with severe quotas and subsidies to those who dismantled the boats (the quotas and the opening of the portuguese sea to powerful foreign fishing fleets that depleted the quotas quickly made living from fishing impossible to many)
- the dismantling of the industry with the consecutive opening of the borders to products from China, India, etc., dropping the custom taxes and making an industry that had to meet the European work conditions standard impossible to sustain.
- the introduction of the Euro currency that made impossible for portuguese economy to compete since the country no longer had the flexibility of the national currency
- the imposed savage privatization of the strategic sectors which gave a boost to the funds of the state and making possible to mascarade the real situation of the portuguese economy and debt, but led to huge medium and long term loss of revenue to the state. Profitable companies no longer sent their profits to the state but to privates.
- the state (central and local) started to hire a large number of people to cope with the unemployment
- with the planed destruction of the productive sectors of the economy, the state had to fund itself, and the European Bankers started to lend money to Portugal which obviously had to be repaid with interests.
- This way, the puppet masters of this fake union won in three ways. They killed the potential competition that another state could bring to their products, they found a new market to sell their products including the ones we didn't need to import a few years ago, and started to profit from the loans on the public debt.
The EU knew all this since it was in the back giving orders to the corrupt portuguese politicians.
And if they knew about the Greeks cooking the books, they had no doubts about the real situation of the portuguese economy and the unsustainability to keep a low debt in a country that stopped producing!
They knew this was going to happen sooner or latter, and when Portugal defaults (real chances) they will lose some money which will be nevertheless compensated by the profits made along decades
... what is happening in Portugal politic - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?
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This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
It's all linked!
Part of the reasons that lead Greece to where it stands today are the same that lead Portugal to where it stands. The errors made by each country was purposely multiplied and exploited 1 million times more in favor of the bankers and politicians of the center of Europe.
The same basic bigotry and ignorant arguments are used by the new superior races, carefully misinformed by the propaganda, and the racist comments I see all around the web are the same. I'm just waiting for a gate to be built with a writing on the top: O Trabalho Torna-te Livre
And especially because if Greece falls, Portugal goes next, and then it will become a house of cards. The problem is much bigger than Greece and it's not contained to that country, especially when the responsibles for it continue to call the shots!
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1985: +(plus) 10 million euros
1991: -(MINUS) 6 BILLION euros
2010: -(MINUS) 16 BILLION euros
What you say is true, but incomplete. And half truths are more dangerous than lies.
Your country is now doing better than in 2010. See the graph related to Portugal's trade balance.
Portugal's 2015 country report highlights the progress, even if the country is far from being out of the woods: ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/csr2015/cr2015_portugal_en.pdf
Portugal is now like Greece was before Syriza seized the power only to drive it in a deeper recession through incompetence and populism.
Free transport in Athens! Imagine that! Like the country can afford such a luxury these days. But hey, there is a referendum on Sunday and the population must be bribed to vote what the government wants.
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And there it was, stathakis just said on cnn live if people vote yes although they are asking them to vote no, the current government will not negotiate for yes. There will be a new government he said.
So they have just been playing with everyone, if the will of the people does not fit their agenda they will hand over their mess to someone else and refuse all responsibility.
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while we're busy talking about greece nobody is looking Ukraine which is the real dead man walking and can't even pay the salaries without begging to their euro/american puppetmasters.
Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)
(https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/russia_wants_war_look_how_closely_they_put_country_to_our_military_bases.jpg)
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... what is happening in Portugal politic - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?
Oh... Portugal is much under control of the two right wing Mafias (pseudo-Social-Democrats and pseudo-Socialists) and their extreme-right clutch (Popular Party).
We'll have elections around September/October and at this moment it seems that everything will for sure continue to be the same because the portuguese are basically ceasing to vote instead choosing other options. So, the ones that put Portugal in this situation will be the ones in charge to get us out... LOL
Plus, the hundreds of thousands emigrating, who would be the ones with most reasons to protest in the urns, won't vote also because it's not possible to them.
There's a new party, with a high-profile leader (ex-president of the Lawyer Order), but the campaign and defamation has already started. The main parties seemed to be able to introduce trojan horses inside the new party, and now are starting to leave with the most atrocious accusations creating fear about him. This party and candidate would be placed in the center.
Other people are afraid to go into politics since the state is undermined by the PS / PSD / PP moles.
As for the other parties in the parliament, they don't stand a chance.
The Portuguese Comunist Party has a lot of votes in the municipal elections (and the only one not plagued by corruption cases) but people don't vote them for the government. Some people in Portugal still fear them to be cannibals of babies, and that they would mass murder old people with poisonous injections behind the ear (I KID YOU NOT AT ALL) after the campaigns made by the church and right wing parties after the revolution. Those that do not believe in that stayed with a bad feeling.
And the Left Bloc has been suffering from internal conflicts and it's in a downward spiral for years now with some of their leaders leaving and creating new parties in the Line of the Podemos.
In last case there will be a central bloc with all the parties responsible for the disaster of the last 40 years just to keep power.
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"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"
And, as we all see, even in this forum, Putin's troll army is rather effective in bashing EU, US, democracy and capitalism, no matter what the topic is, from sales on Shutterstock to the Greek crisis.
This is what you guys want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes)
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What you say is true, but incomplete. And half truths are more dangerous than lies.
Your country is now doing better than in 2010. See the graph related to Portugal's trade balance.
Portugal's 2015 country report highlights the progress, even if the country is far from being out of the woods: ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/csr2015/cr2015_portugal_en.pdf
Portugal is now like Greece was before Syriza seized the power only to drive it in a deeper recession through incompetence and populism.
Free transport in Athens! Imagine that! Like the country can afford such a luxury these days. But hey, there is a referendum on Sunday and the population must be bribed to vote what the government wants.
Half lies? Really? Well, at least you ended-up acknowledging that the data from 1985 to 2010 is true which kind of proves my point about how "great" the EU has been for us and the reason why we are in this mess in the first place! Which was actually my point.
But, not even inside the coalition-parties that make the government the numbers that are presented are completely believed! There are voices doubting the numbers the government is publishing, including former government members of those parties!
But yes, there's seems to be some recovery in the Balance of Trade due to an increase of the exports, and especially due to the contraction of the consumption of imported goods, which is almost everything.
The poverty level skyrocketed, and the percentage of the population in risk of poverty is huge, so people just buy the most basic products. Some supermarket chains, including foreign ones operating here, have started to promote and supply some national products and that also slowed down the consumption of imported food.
But according the latest informations the exports have taken a downturn again (heard it about two weeks ago in the news) because the reasons that sustained the growth are not systemic and have benefited from occasional events like the fluctuations in the price of oil.
Any recovery that's apparently being made is not due to the solution of problems, but because people are being squeezed to the maximum.
The reform of the state is not being made, the Troika is constantly pressing the government to reduce expenditure but that's not happening, so the results are, as I said from the side of the income by raising taxes.
Well, the "expenditure" is being reduced actually... in the education, healthcare, social protection.
But to renew the fleet of cars of the ministries and secretaries, to pay for the billions of euros per year of the public-private agreements where the companies in charge of the management of public infra-structures are reimbursed if any loss occurs (nice no?), and other aberrations like that there doesn't seem to lack money.
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And there it was, stathakis just said on cnn live if people vote yes although they are asking them to vote no, the current government will not negotiate for yes. There will be a new government he said.
So they have just been playing with everyone, if the will of the people does not fit their agenda they will hand over their mess to someone else and refuse all responsibility.
Yesterday Djisselbloem said that the EU could not accept Syriza as negotiating partners on the outcome of a yes vote because they clearly didn't believe it and could not be trusted to implement a deal. He and Stathakis seem to be on the same page on that one.
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Half lies? Really?
I said "half truths", not "half lies". Because the second part of your truth was missing. There is a difference.
Anyway, I read what you say, however I don't know who you are in real life and what you want.
Of course, there is always a chance that someone has reported fake numbers. Until proven wrong, I tend to trust a "little more" an official document, than some emotional internet rant.
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Your map deliberately confuses US bases with Nato bases. The two may be the same but they are not all the same.
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Yes Paul. Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.
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... what is happening in Portugal politic - is there some party like Syriza or Podemos in Spain...?
Oh... Portugal is much under control of the two right wing Mafias (pseudo-Social-Democrats and pseudo-Socialists) and their extreme-right clutch (Popular Party).
We'll have elections around September/October and at this moment it seems that everything will for sure continue to be the same because the portuguese are basically ceasing to vote instead choosing other options. So, the ones that put Portugal in this situation will be the ones in charge to get us out... LOL
Plus, the hundreds of thousands emigrating, who would be the ones with most reasons to protest in the urns, won't vote also because it's not possible to them.
There's a new party, with a high-profile leader (ex-president of the Lawyer Order), but the campaign and defamation has already started. The main parties seemed to be able to introduce trojan horses inside the new party, and now are starting to leave with the most atrocious accusations creating fear about him. This party and candidate would be placed in the center.
Other people are afraid to go into politics since the state is undermined by the PS / PSD / PP moles.
As for the other parties in the parliament, they don't stand a chance.
The Portuguese Comunist Party has a lot of votes in the municipal elections (and the only one not plagued by corruption cases) but people don't vote them for the government. Some people in Portugal still fear them to be cannibals of babies, and that they would mass murder old people with poisonous injections behind the ear (I KID YOU NOT AT ALL) after the campaigns made by the church and right wing parties after the revolution. Those that do not believe in that stayed with a bad feeling.
And the Left Bloc has been suffering from internal conflicts and it's in a downward spiral for years now with some of their leaders leaving and creating new parties in the Line of the Podemos.
In last case there will be a central bloc with all the parties responsible for the disaster of the last 40 years just to keep power.
... IF Podemos wins next elections in Spain - then all Mediterranean nations will follow - maybe that will bring some changes to Portugal political scene...
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Yes Paul. Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.
I think it's a fair view from both sides. It was hardly an "anticipation", since he was basing it on Tsipras's Friday night comments. Tsipras tied his colours to the mast and must stand by them to the end. It's not dishonourable in any way.
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Folks outside Ireland won't have seen this..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_shBt5aGjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_shBt5aGjg)
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Nothing new. This is what will happen in Greece, if the banks will collapse: a barter based economy. A primitive economy. People will pay each other in raw products and services
In your clip: all these people will not be 100 dollars richer, but they will all realise that, in fact, they had no debt. That 100 bill helped them realize that, by closing the debt circle. Without it, they will continue to harass each other for their 1 on 1 debts, when, in fact, all of them were debt free. They could have easily settled their debts by getting all in the same room. But that will be rather hard to do, if the circle is bigger, with many more than 4 or 5 people involved in the transaction.
This is why money, a common denominator, is better than barter.
This is what banks do, indeed.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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(http://www.e-typos.com/files/temp//779C72E3A5023ACBB894E10594128E33.jpg)
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"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"
And, as we all see, even in this forum, Putin's troll army is rather effective in bashing EU, US, democracy and capitalism, no matter what the topic is, from sales on Shutterstock to the Greek crisis.
This is what you guys want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T65SwzHAbes)
Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us is you isnt that so ?
But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes :)
Peace
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Deleted
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Yes Paul. Obviously Dijsselbloem exactly anticipated what kind of people he is dealing with. And now it turns out he is right.
I think it's a fair view from both sides. It was hardly an "anticipation", since he was basing it on Tsipras's Friday night comments. Tsipras tied his colours to the mast and must stand by them to the end. It's not dishonourable in any way.
Juncker feels stabbed in the back. Why is that? The Greek negotiators are telling lies to their people. Cobalt is spot on with her comments.
I understand you defend the Greeks as you are about to retire there, but I have a different point of view. I will keep it at that.
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It used to be so cheap to go to Greece for a holiday. I can't see how they can keep the Euro, so they will probably have a huge tourism boom when they go back to their own currency. Then other countries that are struggling with the Euro and rely on tourism will probably have to go back to their currencies to be competitive with Greece. I think there will be a lot exiting the Euro in the next 5 years.
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If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.
Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?
I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?
The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.
However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.
If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?
If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?
Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?
Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?
Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...
Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.
There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.
Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.
But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.
I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.
Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.
In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.
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Good post again
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very good post.
i think in greece 10% population does not pay taxes at all, i think germany should lead all tax offices in country.
I am not here to write an essay.
Here is the essay you didn't write, probably written by a desperate Greek:
"Dear Fellow Europeans,
Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croats, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, French, Germans, Hungarians, Irish, Italians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Luxembourgians Maltese, Dutch, Pols, Portuguese, Romanians, Slovaks, Slovenians, Spaniards, Swedes and British,
Please allow me to explain to you what has been happening to my country in the last few months and how a group of left wing fanatic ideologues, extremists and opportunists, allied with racists, anti-Semites and neo-* have been leading my nation towards an economic and political Armageddon.
On January 25, after 5 years of economic recession, two bailout packages by the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF), an unprecedented unemployment rate that today exceeds 27% and a significant loss of the average household income, the Greek people (unwisely) decided to vote into power the Radical Left party of SYRIZA. SYRIZA is comprised of Marxist, Stalinist, Trotskyist and Maoist Communists, Anarchists, lots of opportunists without a clear ideology and Socialists, leftovers from the, once powerful, Socialist party of Greece. Before the elections, SYRIZA exceeded in populism any political campaign in living memory. They literally promised everything to everyone. They took advantage of peoples despair and anger against the traditional, mainstream political parties that are, to a large extend, responsible for the Greek economic crisis. However, in every chance, they confirmed that they would not risk the countrys membership in the Eurozone and the EU. The partys leader and current Prime Minister, Mr Tsipras, in his teens and early twenties, was a member of the Orthodox-Stalinist Communist party of Greece and has not work a single day of his life.
His coalition government partner is a right wing, extreme populist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic, psychopathic party, the Independent Greeks, led by an insane fellow who believes in Chemtrails and other conspiracy theories (I kid you not!). He also believes that Greece can seek financial support from countries, such as Russia, China and Iran.
Before 2010, these parties would barely enter parliament reaching the 3% threshold of the popular vote. Exactly like in Germany in the interwar perion and for the same reason (an economic depression), extreme parties have flourished and populism has triumphed in Greece. SYRIZA became the first party with 36% of the popular vote and the Independent Greeks gained another 5%, giving them a parliamentary majority.
What followed was 5 months of so-called negotiations, during which the Minister of Finance, Mr Yanis Varoufakis, a Professor of Economics, specialized in Game Theory and an endless appetite for personal publicity, changed his position on a weekly basis and proposed to the Eurogroup (the Eurozone Finance Ministers assembly) unachievable economic targets for an economy that was back into recession after a trimester of economic growth in late 2014. In the meantime, in Greece, the coalition government increased public spending by hiring thousands people into the public sector. This completely derailed the economy and resulted in a deficit of more than 5 billion euros. Additionally, there was a widespread media campaign to present the EU, the ECB and the IMF as bloodthirsty monsters that hate the Greek people and wish to starve and humiliate us. A lot of people in Greece actually BELIEVE that this is the true intention of our EU partners!
Political parties, politicians, journalists or even regular citizens, like myself, who defend a United Europe and wish us a part of the Eurozone are characterized as traitors and enemies of the people.
On Friday, June 26, Mr Tsipras, after failing to reach a compromise with the EU and the IMF, called a snap referendum for Sunday, July 5, in which he is asking the people to vote YES or NO to the following question: Do you approve the technical proposal of the Creditors of Greece (The EU, ECB and IMF) for the extension of the bailout programme? This proposal, submitted to the Greek government a few days ago, includes reduction of public spending, increase of the VAT and liberal economic reforms. Keep in mind that increased taxation was proposed to our Creditors by the Greek government itself. The question of the referendum is dishonest and deceiving. The average citizen, misinformed and confused from five months of conflicting information and the anti-European rhetoric of the coalition government, largely unaware of the dire situation of the economy and the consequences of his vote, angry by increased taxes and pension cuts, will naturally vote NO. The actual question that needs to be answered is whether the people want the country in the Euro with reforms or a National Currency without reforms. Of course the coalition government will not put the real question to the vote, they would never take responsibility, they will always blame the others.
What the Greek government does with this referendum is nothing less than a political extortion towards the entire EU. On Saturday, June 27, this extortion was put on a vote in the Greek parliament and won a majority support by the MPs of the Radical Left party, its right-wing populist partner and the far-right racist Neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn (the shame of my country, or at least one of the recent shames). This broad anti-European coalition is officially leading my country into the abyss of extremism, populism, international isolation and bankruptcy. This should not come as a total surprise. Mr Tsipras and many SYRIZA party-members have declared, more than once, that Venezuela should serve as a model of Democracy for Greece. SYRIZA recognizes its ideological counterparts in Latin-American Socialist semi-dictatorships.
Mr Tsipras and his party, together with their lunatic partners, deceived the Greek people with false promises and stole the popular vote. They then bombarded the public with a coordinated anti-European campaign of lies. Now, they are playing their last card to take Greece out of the Eurozone and the European Union. This is their target. This was their target from the beginning. They are not Democrats, they are Fascists. They were always Fascists. And they want to bring down Democracy in its birthplace.
Please share this message and inform your friends about what is really happening in Greece and what is at stake.
Constantinos Kyriakis"
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Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us is you isnt that so ?
But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes :)
Peace
It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.
I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.
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I guess would probably be ok in that case to unite corporations with interest in Greece and finance and organize a new revolution in and implement a new EU controlled puppets government putting the "democratic" will of a nation at second plan. They obviously voted wrongly and the Ukrainian scenario should be repeated. What a hell lets say that the elections were a set up. Its better for them , we all know it and we have long term experience in that field anyway.
Then lets scare them, let them clearly know that if the vote in anti-European direction on referendum that the revenge will be huge. Yes lets play on fear card and show them a though fist of democracy. After all don't they remember it was all ok when they had pro European government which never played any role in any of those insane loans that they took which scientifically proved CANNOT be repaid, not in Greece case only but in case of basically all countries in the world. Nobody will pay those loans off...NEVER. Hoever thinks Italy will ever repay the loans is in huge mistake, its way way more likely that the country will stop existing as such.
Somebody needs to step in front of those hungry people waiting for their medicines which are long gone and openly say that in case that they don't accept to work until death with 35 taxes and without basic social rights somewhere someone will loose 2% of something.
Man we are pushing the new loans in their pockets to repay the old ones and make them bigger and they dare to reject that. Are they aware that they wont even repay the next loans but their children will and they wont be able anyway so all they got to loose is more social rights for the generations that are not even born.
And I wouldn't base my opinion on payed internet posts of opponent party youth anyway because anyone with at least piece of a brain can guess the will of majority and the outcome of incoming referendum and EU knows it. Thats why they are acting like fly with diarrhea.
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Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us is you isnt that so ?
But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes :)
Peace
It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.
I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.
Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech means trolling to you then you need help.
Peace
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Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us is you isnt that so ?
But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes :)
Peace
It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.
I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.
Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech means trolling to you then you need help.
Peace
Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Then you go and post NATO maps in a "Go Greece" post, after having the same NATO fixation in a topic about the commercial photography in EU:
You are writing about removing possibilities of future wars, man they got us at the gates of the next one deploying nuclear bases all around the place at this same time
You are of course free to rant against EU on any given topic opened on this forum.
And some "help" clarifications: those brainwashed by decades of socialist propaganda are the ones who need help. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to reboot some mindsets.
Those unable to stand on their own feet in a free economy, those who consider themselves entitled to government handouts, those who expect their government to give them jobs, those who expect their debts erased , those who expect to be paid no matter how efficient, competitive or productive their work is, those unwilling to move to find a better job, those are the people who need "help". Help to realize that they need to reboot their thinking...
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Nothing new. This is what will happen in Greece, if the banks will collapse: a barter based economy. A primitive economy. People will pay each other in raw products and services
In your clip: all these people will not be 100 dollars richer, but they will all realise that, in fact, they had no debt. That 100 bill helped them realize that, by closing the debt circle. Without it, they will continue to harass each other for their 1 on 1 debts, when, in fact, all of them were debt free. They could have easily settled their debts by getting all in the same room. But that will be rather hard to do, if the circle is bigger, with many more than 4 or 5 people involved in the transaction.
This is why money, a common denominator, is better than barter.
This is what banks do, indeed.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
Supposed to be ironic. For reference, the clip is an actor portraying one of the bankers primarily responsible for the meltdown in Ireland - in other words the kind of smoke & mirrors thinking that caused the problem rather than folks actually getting richer.
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Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us is you isnt that so ?
But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes :)
Peace
It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.
I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.
Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech means trolling to you then you need help.
Peace
Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Then you go and post NATO maps in a "Go Greece" post, after having the same NATO fixation in a topic about the commercial photography in EU:
You are writing about removing possibilities of future wars, man they got us at the gates of the next one deploying nuclear bases all around the place at this same time
You are of course free to rant against EU on any given topic opened on this forum.
And some "help" clarifications: those brainwashed by decades of socialist propaganda are the ones who need help. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to reboot some mindsets.
Those unable to stand on their own feet in a free economy, those who consider themselves entitled to government handouts, those who expect their government to give them jobs, those who expect their debts erased , those who expect to be paid no matter how efficient, competitive or productive their work is, those unwilling to move to find a better job, those are the people who need "help". Help to realize that they need to reboot their thinking...
Firstly of all you were quoting me...
Next...your mindset its obviously not able to comprehend my political standings and you keep loosing yourself trying to sort me into a category... you can never understand it with your current mindset trapped in the illusion that there is a honest political solution because there is not.
Will just quote Einstein on that : "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it" and that's about it.
You my friend are holding the side that is creating problems for all people including yourself and you highest opponents are keeping the balance on the other side doing the same as you keep accusing each others and your political opponents puppet idols for the current state and as Tesla was saying, you are really looking ironic and desperate from wider perspectives.
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If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.
Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?
I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?
The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.
However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.
If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?
If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?
Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?
Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?
Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...
Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.
There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.
Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.
But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.
I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.
Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.
In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.
Well,I'm afraid it's not that simple!
Do rich people need poor people in order to remain rich?
In a globalised world, economies are interdependent. A trade surplus in an exporting country implies a trade deficit in an importing one, if, as was the case with Greece and the rest of the Eurozone, the exporting countries adopt policies to diminish the economic potential of their rivals. Economic crises therefore require collective solutions rather than the beggar-my-neighbour policies Germany and the Troika are opting for at present.
At the moment the Troika is actively preventing Greece from sorting out its economy by enforcing austerity, which is having a negative effect on growth rates. Because Greece doesnt have its own central bank it cant use monetary policy to escape recession, so what the government has been asking for in negotiations with the Troika is debt relief which would allow it to invest in economic growth. But the Eurozone as a whole has rejected these standard Keynesian policies in favour of harsh cuts to investment and public services.
This idea ignores the structural reasons for Greeces borrowing. All countries borrow money to invest in their economies and compete in the world economy. By 2009 the smaller Eurozone economies Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain were all burdened with massive debts because their borrowing failed to make them more competitive. As Costas Lapavitsas has shown, the reason for this is simple: the German government froze wages so as to out-compete countries like Greece. Given its superior economic and technological starting point, Germany was always going to win if its wages were low enough. Greece therefore built up a big trade deficit which was proportional to the German trade surplus. So Greek borrowing was actively encouraged by Germany which is now demanding Greece shoulder the blame for what was a failure of the entire Eurozone.
For someone to be RICH, someone else MUST be POOR. Simple as that
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If they get the drachme back, they can devalue it or print as much money as they like.
Isn't this part of chinas success? Keeping their currency low so the world keeps buying their products and their already low wages are even cheaper than they should be so they keep all the jobs?
I wonder if bulgaria or lithuania or poland held a referendum, to ask if they should send greece more money, would the greeks accept the democratic decisions of other european countries?
The UK doesn't have the euro because they decided it didn't work for them.
However, the biggest problem is the lack of a basically functioning state.
If the greeks themselves don't trust their own banks and remove all their money, why should the rest of the World loan them money?
If the greeks don't trust their state and don't pay their taxes, why should other countries tax money go there?
Why don't the greek billionaire's step up with humanitarian work and Money for their countrymen like many superrich do in the US?
Why doesn't the goverment propose a flat 35% special tax for emergencies on all foreign accounts? The way we in Germany have been paying to integrate east Germany since unification?
Why not confiscate money from the greek church that doesn't pay tax and has accumulated wealth from the greeks for centuries...etc...
Even Russia doesn't seem to be interested in getting financially involved and they could easily help by lifting sanctions on greek products like apricots, cheese and olive Oli. Russia is a huge market for greece, it would really help them and be real money from real business, not another loan.
There is a lot they can do and focus on instead of asking for money from outsiders and then of course hoping that all these loans will be cancelled later.
Nobody believes they have any intention of paying anything they get now back.
But the greek people voted for them and all the previous governments, so until there is a genuine people's movement to fight corruption nothing will change.
I mean, they could all start by putting their money back into their banks and only take out what they really need.
Show solidarity with your own country and put your money into it.
In south korea people sold their gold and their jewelry to help their country. You can always do things yourself if you are really proud and love your community.
Well,I'm afraid it's not that simple!
Do rich people need poor people in order to remain rich?
In a globalised world, economies are interdependent. A trade surplus in an exporting country implies a trade deficit in an importing one, if, as was the case with Greece and the rest of the Eurozone, the exporting countries adopt policies to diminish the economic potential of their rivals. Economic crises therefore require collective solutions rather than the beggar-my-neighbour policies Germany and the Troika are opting for at present.
At the moment the Troika is actively preventing Greece from sorting out its economy by enforcing austerity, which is having a negative effect on growth rates. Because Greece doesnt have its own central bank it cant use monetary policy to escape recession, so what the government has been asking for in negotiations with the Troika is debt relief which would allow it to invest in economic growth. But the Eurozone as a whole has rejected these standard Keynesian policies in favour of harsh cuts to investment and public services.
This idea ignores the structural reasons for Greeces borrowing. All countries borrow money to invest in their economies and compete in the world economy. By 2009 the smaller Eurozone economies Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain were all burdened with massive debts because their borrowing failed to make them more competitive. As Costas Lapavitsas has shown, the reason for this is simple: the German government froze wages so as to out-compete countries like Greece. Given its superior economic and technological starting point, Germany was always going to win if its wages were low enough. Greece therefore built up a big trade deficit which was proportional to the German trade surplus. So Greek borrowing was actively encouraged by Germany which is now demanding Greece shoulder the blame for what was a failure of the entire Eurozone.
For someone to be RICH, someone else MUST be POOR. Simple as that
Great analysis by fritz - some people here are talking ideologically, defending moves of the European Union - those are brainwashed by decades of poor western propaganda , and there is no help.
- btw - two Nobel prize winners in economy - P. Krugman and J.Stiglic - just recommended voting OXI - NO on Greek referendum...
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Well, Greece missed the deadline to repay the IMF and the people of Greece are protesting against the government for the lies they were told. Seems the people want to stay in Europe. The saga continues.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/29/opinion/paul-krugman-greece-over-the-brink.html)
"the Greek government was spending beyond its means in the late 2000s. But since then it has repeatedly slashed spending and raised taxes. Government employment has fallen more than 25 percent, and pensions (which were indeed much too generous) have been cut sharply. If you add up all the austerity measures, they have been more than enough to eliminate the original deficit and turn it into a large surplus.
So why didnt this happen? Because the Greek economy collapsed, largely as a result of those very austerity measures, dragging revenues down with it."
"...acceding to the troikas ultimatum would represent the final abandonment of any pretense of Greek independence. Dont be taken in by claims that troika officials are just technocrats explaining to the ignorant Greeks what must be done. These supposed technocrats are in fact fantasists who have disregarded everything we know about macroeconomics, and have been wrong every step of the way. This isnt about analysis, its about power the power of the creditors to pull the plug on the Greek economy, which persists as long as euro exit is considered unthinkable."
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Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.
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Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.
Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.
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Most Greeks get taxes taken straight out their pay-cheques like everyone else. A lot of Greeks who are in businesses where they can take cash do, and avoid the taxes. Guess what? a lot of people in the UK do that too. But when people are suffering it just makes some feel better if they deserve it more than anyone else I guess.
When they think their banks are about to fail Greeks are likely pull their money out causing it to be a self fulfilling prophesy. You know who else would act like that? Everyone. That's why the UK government also acted to stop a run on the banks with Northen Rock, because the reality is that the few who leave the their money in really are likely to be left with nothing. That's how the system works I'm afraid. Capitalism is based on everyone acting selfishly yet we blame people when they feel they have to play game they find themselves in just to survive. Meanwhile of course the banks themselves and companies in general have always acted in the same in the same way. Whatever, I just hope the Greeks can find a way out from under this mess.
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Interesting watch for those who are really interested....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRDL0JzNt4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRDL0JzNt4o)
...people like this are not trustworthy, yet are allowed to be in power:
http://www.businessinsider.com/juncker-financial-markets-false-denial-2011-5 (http://www.businessinsider.com/juncker-financial-markets-false-denial-2011-5)
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Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.
Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.
The most the taxes are raised, the most people will try to evade them because they begin to feel unfair. So, raising taxes too much has the contrary effect it intends to.
Especially if the people are already disagreeing with the way those taxes are being used, like feeding doubtful foundations, superfluous public works with dodgy contracts that never meet the initial budgets and events and luxuries to the political class (government and opposition), while the services to the population are being cut in healthcare, education, protection in the unemployment, pensions and so on.
The only thing it ends up making is to punish those that actually pay them, by principle or because they cannot evade them.
I recently witnessed a situation where a family member had to repair is (15 year old) car because the public transports are next to none in the area he lives, he now has a newborn baby that needs to go to doctor appointments, and his wife is unemployed. Upon the payment he asked for the bill so he could introduce it in his tax expenses and the mechanic told him that if he wanted an invoice for the taxes he would have to charge an additional 23% for the state (not to the mechanic).
Well, you guessed he didn't pay for the tax because it would raise the expense too much for what he could pay at the moment. He wanted to pay, he just couldn't.
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Raising taxes doesnt do any good if the people arent paying them in the first place.
Nothing good ever comes out of raising taxes.
The most the taxes are raised, the most people will try to evade them because they begin to feel unfair. So, raising taxes to much has the contrary effect it intends to.
I fully agree. Especially in the EU taxes are way to high and governments seem to think they are in charge to control peoples lives.
Most entrepreneurs I met in the last 20 years did not care so much if the pay 16% taxes or 12% or 22%, but in the EU every entrepreneur acting as a natural person has to pay in most countries about 50% - 70% (taxes + social security). Especially the so called "social security contribution" could be seen as scam as many governments do not deliver promised services yet charge you a huge percentage of your income. In many countries e.g. healthcare, pensions etc. do not work and are practically non-existent.
Yesterday I stood as a pedestrian in front of a red light of a avenue in a big northern EU city. There was no traffic. People had been waiting...looking at the red light, the empty street, hesitating....then they startet to cross at red. Most people want to do things "right". They start to evade or violate the rules when they make no sense, not because they have a bad character.
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I am from Portugal.
In Portugal, the current government is formed by a center right party (PSD) and a right party (PP)
There is no extreme right party in the parlament. They exist (PNR) but they never get enough votes to get there, fortunately.
In some months, the new elections will be between PSD/PP or PS (center-left party). It is always like that in Portugal. Most of the people here see politics like football. If they are PSD, they vote PSD. If they are PS, they vote PS. So it is always between PS and PSD.
I don't know if the economy is recovering or not here. I just know that the house market is recovering (but right now, a lot of chinese are buying houses in Portugal, so it is hard to conclude anything). I bought an house 2 years ago for a very cheap price because of the crisis, and I know that right now I would not buy it so cheap.
Luckily, here in Portugal, a big majority of families are the owner of their own house and parents and grand-parents were able (and still are) to help the young. So even if it was hard, we were able to manage the crisis. What is most scary, I believe, is looking at the future.
The portuguese public spending seems controlled right now, but many decisions that the government made were unpopulist and controversial.
About Greece, I would not like to see them leave the euro. But these months, I waited to see what the greek prime minister would do and honestly I only see him and the finance minister interested of taking part of a big brother show. TV, VIP magazines... I saw a few days ago the list of their political plans that they presented to EC/ECB/IMF, and could not believe my eyes. Most of them where so basic, they should have been done right away when they were elected! They are only losing a lot of time and greek people will pay for their delay.
They seems like 2 little kids...
But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.
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wow!
1,102,893EUR
raised by 64,355 people in 3 days
https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html (https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html)
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...But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.
Not just the EU, look at the debt in other countries like the US and Japan. They have much bigger debts than Greece but have got away with it so far, probably because they have their own currency.
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...But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.
Not just the EU, look at the debt in other countries like the US and Japan. They have much bigger debts than Greece but have got away with it so far, probably because they have their own currency.
Detroit uses the US$ and this didn't stop them to go bankrupt, Greece style. Porto Rico is now in a similar situation. Some US states are also in a rather dire situation, because of poor governance, begging for federal aid.
If Drachma can be a magical solution for Greece's structural problems, maybe a "Detroit Dollar" can be a solution for Detroit. :) I wonder why Detroit didn't think about it? Hmmm...
Drachma will not end Greece's structural problems, but, instead, will give Greeks the illusion of being paid. The inflation will be rampant and this will make the Greeks poorer every day. Poorer than under the strict euro-rules.
What needs to be changed now, when the euro is the measurement unit, must be changed even if a new currency is invented. There is no magical way out.
Perpetuum mobile doesn't exist. Energy cannot be created out of nothing. Similarly, in economy, wealth cannot be created with paper, even if the paper is called Drachma.
A strong currency is like an economical Litmus test: it shows economical mistakes and structural problems. It forces responsible governments to make good investments, stop over-spending and take corrective actions.
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All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places? So it must make some difference?
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wow!
1,102,893EUR
raised by 64,355 people in 3 days
https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html (https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html)
Wow cool, hope this takes off!
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http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/07/01/419238213/episode-636-yes-or-no (http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/07/01/419238213/episode-636-yes-or-no)
podcast about the vote
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All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places? So it must make some difference?
Yes, it was much much cheaper than today!
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Here is a more accurate graph showing the Greek deficit with a better granularity (monthly levels).
Isn't it obvious how a populist and irresponsible government can mess-up almost 2 years of efforts and sacrifices?
Odysseus tied himself to the mast to resist the sirens calls. Despite a difficult struggle, his ship safely sailed home.
Unfortunately, the modern greeks didn't follow the example of their legendary hero and fell for Tsipras' call.
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All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places? So it must make some difference?
But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!
How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.
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How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.
[sarcasm]
Ask the greek government. They seem to think that repaying loans is optional. Maybe they have a solution.
[/sarcasm]
I believe leaving the Euro will be a lot harder for most of the people in Greece than staying in the Eurozone - even if the latter means unpopular reforms in the short run.
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Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Hahahahaha !
you must be american ...
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Hahahahaha !
you must be american ...
Ha, ha, ha, ha!
Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!
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All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places? So it must make some difference?
But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!
How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.
The fridge, tv, computer and video camera probably all come from China, they seem to do OK without being tied to the Euro.
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All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places? So it must make some difference?
But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!
How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.
It worked for Iceland. When they went bust their currency was tied to the Euro. They had to devalue (to roughly half the original exchange rate) and it certainly caused some pain but ... five years later the economy was back in growth.
Yes, imports become more expensive with a devaluation but then exports become more valuable too. It stimulates the local economy. A cheaper Greece would be much more attractive to foreign investors and therefore would actually have money flowing into the country rather than out of it (as has been the case in Greece for the last few years). Foreign investment in manufacturing, because wages are cheaper, also brings many more jobs. You wouldn't have to import fridges and tv's if they were actually made in Greece instead.
Greece has already had several painful years of austerity however, in contrast to Iceland, they have absolutely nothing to show for it other than a much bigger debt than they had before. By staying in the Euro they are just extending their pain and humiliation (by having policies forced upon them by foreign lenders) seemingly forever.
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Hahahahaha !
you must be american ...
Ha, ha, ha, ha!
Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!
unlikely, at best an eastern european who moved in the States or UK.
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Hahahahaha !
you must be american ...
Ha, ha, ha, ha!
Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!
unlikely
Lol, russians can be open minded, even if you believe it is unlikely ;) Maybe more than you think.
Anya, Sasha, Natasha.
Fell free to continue your guessing game.
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Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:
http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/ (http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/)
Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.
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Varoufakis is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.
Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.
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Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:
[url]http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/[/url] ([url]http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/[/url])
Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.
Without having listened to it, is it not a fact that Greece needed 230 BILLION to save their butt after cooking their books?
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Varoufakis is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.
Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.
When you say "typical behaviour". You mean typical Greeks right? because that was a different government?
If your argument is fundamentally a eugenic one and you aren't interested in reading or listening to anything that may dissuade you from it what's the point in discussing it?
I am not going to be able to convince you that some races aren't just inherently superior to others, so just go ahead and keep believing whatever you like.
Something else for you not not to watch, this time about how the IMF works https://vimeo.com/27901846 gets interesting about 4 minutes in.
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The current Greek government has managed to unite all the other 18 eurozone countries against it, I doubt they have ever been so collectively pissed off together.
All these insults towards europe and germany, all the talk of describing all of europe as vultures and vampires, do they really believe the people of europe donīt follow twitter or the news? that we canīt see how they hate us?
Donīt like europe, donīt ask other european taxpayers for their hard earned money.
why on earth is it "undemocratic" if people in europe donīt want to hand out more loans if they donīt see progress, especially going after the rich greeks and all the middle class that took their money out and sent it abroad?
But again, if all their politicians would lead by example, march to the banks and put in the cash money they have been hoarding in their mattress, the greek banks wouldnīt need to beg the EU.
You canīt "vote" yourself to our money and attacking the people you want money from isnīt really a useful strategy anywhere. Imagine applying for a job by hanging up posters around the city how much you despise the company you are applying too and that their boss is a monster.
I have heard for years and years, that all the eu money "never helped the people - we never got anything, nothing - it always just went to the banks". Well, now the banks no longer get loans, maybe slowly the connection will settle in. That "saving the banks" they despise so much, kept the country running and allowed everyone to live their lives.
Now that the time has run out, it will take weeks to start a new negotiation. And any new offer will have to be agreed on by all 18 parliaments, which might take months and will lead to heavy debates in every single country.
But of course if we discuss how to send our tax money and vote on it, we are accused as "undemocratic".
And inspite of it all, here there already are work groups for humantiarian aid, especially for medication to be sent to Greece from Germany. I fully expect if they actually are sent over, that the helpers will have the goods ripped out of their hands and afterwards they get insulted and shouted at. Or will anyone bother to say "Thank you"??
I am just 1/4 greek and donīt speak the language, but I am really fed up with the populism and the lies. And like many times before, I will be part of the extended family network sending money, when it becomes necessary.
It will lead to even more people leaving to work abroad, but every time they go back, they are so disappointed that there is no improvement. All the energy put into complaining loudly, could be put into getting things done.
Instead there is all this hot air talk of how much europe owes greece and how without greece we are all nothing.
Irrespective of what people vote for, I think Europe has many countries with very poor people. I hope some of the media spotlight gets focussed back on them. Greece is not the only country going through difficult times.
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Varoufakis is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.
Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.
When you say "typical behaviour". You mean typical Greeks right? because that was a different government?
If your argument is fundamentally a eugenic one and you aren't interested in reading or listening to anything that may dissuade you from it what's the point in discussing it?
I am not going to be able to convince you that some races aren't just inherently superior to others, so just go ahead and keep believing whatever you like.
Something else for you not not to watch, this time about how the IMF works https://vimeo.com/27901846 gets interesting about 4 minutes in.
I am reading plenty and experienced it first hand. That's how I got my opinion about Greece . Just because you believe otherwise I need to change mine? Isn't that the same you are accusing me of?
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Greece is the only country in Europe approaching 30% unemployment and 60% youth unemployment though. That is unheard of outside of a war zone. That is considerably higher than the US at the worst point of the great depression.
I am just trying to point out the epic scale of what is going on in Greece. Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German) living their lives. Not cooking books, not lying, not taking loans, just average people scrapping a living.
ETA, was typing at the same time, my reply was to the post two posts above. Reply to post above; no not what I'm accusing you of.
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Isn't a government representing their people? The people of Greece voted these people into office. Their minister of finance is playing tricks and telling lies just like all the others before him. They've got 230 billion dollar and need 50 billion more. Its time they leave the euro so they can sort out their issues. No need to drag the rest of Europe with them.
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Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German)
Those millions of Greeks are responsible for voting irresponsible politicians in power. Bad managers.
Carrying a bucket of water, on your head, for 2km, is hard work, indeed. And it takes a lot of those working hours, you see on the stats. But it is totally ineficient. Not that Greeks don't have running water, you get the point.
If two men, on the same boat, row in opposite directions, both work very hard, indeed, but their boat goes nowhere. They need a good manager to make their hard work efficient.
The government and their populist agenda (buying votes with borrowed money) is responsible for this lack of productivity and chaos the country is in.
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I am just trying to point out the epic scale of what is going on in Greece. Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German) living their lives. Not cooking books, not lying, not taking loans, just average people scrapping a living.
nobody doubts that things are bad. Just that that in many countries in the eu, people believe their lives are much worse than they are in greece today. their pensioners get only 200 euros, not over 700. and they also have very high levels of unemployed young people.
but you donīt see them going on tv, shouting how horrible europe is, they openly acknowledge, that they need to work hard to fight corruption etc...And why should their money be sent to greece? All 18 countries will have to vote on the next greek bailout and approve it. With the current campaign tsirpas is running, how likely is it that money for greece will be approved?
The current greek government is riding the worst populist anti eu campaign I have seen. And the decent people in greece voted for them, too, including many unemployed young people.
So of course, many people in other european countries are wondering, why our money should be sent to a country where all the 230 billion euros we already sent are either taken for granted or we are even accused that it was sent to "occupy greece". no european tax payer wants to occupy greece. not even germans.
A countries government is a reflection of the peopleīs will in a democracy.
So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.
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So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.
Meawhile, it looks like some northern Greeks decided to get closer to Bulgaria. Hotels and restaurants began accepting payments in Bulgarian lev (pegged to the euro since quite some time already):
https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129438
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Isn't a government representing their people? The people of Greece voted these people into office. Their minister of finance is playing tricks and telling lies just like all the others before him. They've got 230 billion dollar and need 50 billion more. Its time they leave the euro so they can sort out their issues. No need to drag the rest of Europe with them.
This actualy encapsulates the whole point of this conversation,especially the last sentence,and it is very funny that this whole conversation is nothing but a byproduct of fear and doubt,just like in most media and conversations these days.
Regardless of Greece leaving the Eurozone or staying in it,the Eurozone is pretty much dead,and if you fail to see it (not you personally) then you are in for a big surprise.
Germany wants to impose restrictions,and they are very good at it, but they are not ready to do for the the Eurozone anything positive (they avoid Eurobonds and QE like the plague) .
Ultimately this will lead to its destruction sooner or later.
If the black sheep of Europe though (Greece) -via its departure- becomes the force that will force Germans to stop behaving like idiots then so be it.Actually i hope this is the case but sadly it doesnt look like it.
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Germany after WWII has been the motor of Europe and most invested in the bailout of Greece. Germany has their sh!t in order, so I think they are entitled to have a big say in how things are done.
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So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.
Meawhile, it looks like some northern Greeks decided to get closer to Bulgaria. Hotels and restaurants began accepting payments in Bulgarian lev (pegged to the euro since quite some time already):
https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129438
Practical and clever. This is the kind of flexibel reaction that I expect will soon follow all over Greece.
Some people might have to swallow their pride...but money, is money...
https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129385
"Bulgaria's prime minister Boyko Borisov said Greece's situation - the country is holding a referendum on whether to accept creditors' reform demands - has already had a political price.
"While the euro zone countries do not discipline themselves, I see no reason to rush with the membership," Borisov said in a statement, reports Reuters.
"If we were in the eurozone, we would also have to give money to Greece - the poorer would give to the richer, I do not see a logic in that," said the centre-right leader, referring to the bailouts given to Greece by its eurozone partners."
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Still would like to hear from someone who has his $hit in order unlike Germany,to explain to us a few things.
Two simple questions.
1)As far as foreign politics:How exactly did they manage to blatantly support Porosenko's neo-nazists in Ukraine,creating a textbook civil war, drawn from Victoria Nuland's wildest and wettest dreams.Still a hot potato on their hands that one.A foreign policy to behold.
2)As far as internal affairs and economy:After he/she has done explaining the massive mess that is Ukraine i would like him/her also to explain how
exactly they will keep pretending that they are a motor (with and without the European wagon) when they keep trying to convince themselves that the Chinese will buy all their stuff that they have a LOT of trouble exporting lately.
In fact dont even bother.I am sure that interplanetary trade is within reach and a more realistic approach for them.
I am curious to see in the foreseeable future how exactly Scheuble will convince a german society in total shock and awe,that they will need from now on to get used to "socialism" .
Part time work,etc etc (unless the german society can handle 20-25% instant unemployement without burning half the country to the ground through riots) .Not even goint to expand on public spending etc or their debt which is conveniently "hidden in a closet" .
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quote-modify error-disregard (sigh)
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In my opinion it is likely that the Greeks will vote YES, the reason being that the past week has been a shock to them and they will be fearful of things getting even worse on a NO vote. They'll likely vote YES out of fear, and in hope that a YES vote will bring the current crisis to an end and allow banks to reopen, pensions and wages to be paid, and international transactions to begin again (which they won't).
Unfortunately all this will do is kick the can down the road, and within a few weeks or months the crisis will return again when it becomes evident that reforms aren't being implemented and the recession continues even worse as tourists avoid the country and their major source of income and employment dwindles.
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I am curious to see in the foreseeable future how exactly Scheuble will convince a german society in total shock and awe,that they will need from now on to get used to "socialism" .
Part time work,etc etc (unless the german society can handle 20-25% instant unemployement without burning half the country to the ground through riots) .Not even goint to expand on public spending etc or their debt which is conveniently "hidden in a closet" .
Well, if that is the future of Germany, then Greece can relax and really focus on themselves now, canīt they?
No reason to expect anything from Germany or any other eurozone country.
So why not just pretend Germany doesnīt even exist and build their own country with their own peopleīs money now?
Not necessary to wait until Germany breaks down. Just move forward and ignore everyone else. So by the time Germany breaks down, they can send us billions in aid money.
A lot of people will vote yes and hope things will get better instantly, but of course that will not happen. If Greece gets a deal by end of the year I would be really impressed. 18 parliaments and electorates to convince. That will be very hard,especially if V and T keep insulting them all and acccuse them of waging a war on greece.
Everyone will turn away and focus on the countries that want to stay in the Eurozone or that are working really hard to clear up their house to become eligible.
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Still would like to hear from someone who has his $hit in order unlike Germany,to explain to us a few things.
Two simple questions.
1)As far as foreign politics:How exactly did they manage to blatantly support Porosenko's neo-nazists in Ukraine,creating a textbook civil war, drawn from Victoria Nuland's wildest and wettest dreams.Still a hot potato on their hands that one.A foreign policy to behold.
2)As far as internal affairs and economy:After he/she has done explaining the massive mess that is Ukraine i would like him/her also to explain how
exactly they will keep pretending that they are a motor (with and without the European wagon) when they keep trying to convince themselves that the Chinese will buy all their stuff that they have a LOT of trouble exporting lately.
In fact dont even bother.I am sure that interplanetary trade is within reach and a more realistic approach for them.
I am curious to see in the foreseeable future how exactly Scheuble will convince a german society in total shock and awe,that they will need from now on to get used to "socialism" .
Part time work,etc etc (unless the german society can handle 20-25% instant unemployement without burning half the country to the ground through riots) .Not even goint to expand on public spending etc or their debt which is conveniently "hidden in a closet" .
Pro-democracy, freedom and independence movements are now neo-Nazi?
Common! Keep it real and don't fall for Kremlin's propaganda.
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Someone is watching too much CNN.
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Pro-democracy, freedom and independence movements are now neo-Nazi?
Common! Keep it real and don't fall for Kremlin's propaganda.
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Sorry to disappoint you but i dont have any access whatsoever to Kremlin's propaganda but only to western propaganda (which i avoid like the plague) .
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In my opinion it is likely that the Greeks will vote YES, the reason being that the past week has been a shock to them and they will be fearful of things getting even worse on a NO vote. They'll likely vote YES out of fear, and in hope that a YES vote will bring the current crisis to an end and allow banks to reopen, pensions and wages to be paid, and international transactions to begin again (which they won't).
Unfortunately all this will do is kick the can down the road, and within a few weeks or months the crisis will return again when it becomes evident that reforms aren't being implemented and the recession continues even worse as tourists avoid the country and their major source of income and employment dwindles.
I don't really know how voting yes would improve matters because the offer that was available might not be now. So their lenders would probably have even more demands before they gave them more money, as they would almost have to go along with them. How would the government be able to carry on having lost this referendum? Voting no seems more straightforward to me, they are very likely to end up out of the Euro, so they might as well get the pain over quickly.
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Pro-democracy, freedom and independence movements are now neo-Nazi?
Common! Keep it real and don't fall for Kremlin's propaganda.
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Sorry to disappoint you but i dont have any access whatsoever to Kremlin's propaganda but only to western propaganda (which i avoid like the plague) .
How candid!
You don't seem to realise how much today's "western" media and European extremism are infested with Kremlin's money. Ideology is not relevant. From the far right to the stalinist left (not surprisingly allies in Greece) from racists to Christian fundamentalists all can be on the payroll, as long as they have an anti-EU agenda.
Divide et impera!
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How candid!
You don't seem to realise how much today's "western" media and European extremism are infested with Kremlin's money. Ideology is not relevant. From the far right to the stalinist left (not surprisingly allies in Greece) from racists to Christian fundamentalists all can be on the payroll, as long as they have an anti-EU agenda.
Divide et impera!
It's better being candid that living in 2015 with cold war era's obsessions.
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How candid!
You don't seem to realise how much today's "western" media and European extremism are infested with Kremlin's money. Ideology is not relevant. From the far right to the stalinist left (not surprisingly allies in Greece) from racists to Christian fundamentalists all can be on the payroll, as long as they have an anti-EU agenda.
Divide et impera!
It's better being candid that living in 2015 with cold war era's obsessions.
Says someone with WWII obsessions :)
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-european-far-right-parties-converge-in-st-petersburg/517839.html
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It's better being candid that living in 2015 with cold war era's obsessions.
Says someone with WWII obsessions :)
[/quote]
And how exactly did you arrive to this conclusion?
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Your words:
Porosenko's neo-nazists in Ukraine
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It's better being candid that living in 2015 with cold war era's obsessions.
it's funny they see Russia as the absolute evil, actually the EU needs Russia a lot more than Russia will ever need the EU.
as for Ukraine's neo na-zis suffice to say the thugs of Pravy Sektor are leading the actual puppet government ...
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Says someone with WWII obsessions :)
[url]http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-european-far-right-parties-converge-in-st-petersburg/517839.html[/url] ([url]http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-european-far-right-parties-converge-in-st-petersburg/517839.html[/url])
actually the european far right supports russia as a counterbalance to NATO and the EU, not because of the cold war or communism or WW2 or whatever happened before 1989.
said that, Putin has never did anything in favour of russian or foreign neo * and nationalists in general, actually under his rule russia approved several anti-racism laws designed to keep the far right at bay .. the kind of national pride encouraged under Putin is of the "czarist" type.
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It's better being candid that living in 2015 with cold war era's obsessions.
it's funny they see Russia as the absolute evil, actually the EU needs Russia a lot more than Russia will ever need the EU.
as for Ukraine's neo na-zis suffice to say the thugs of Pravy Sektor are leading the actual puppet government ...
What is funny is to see how those who try to cut the strings are called puppets.
When they succed, they are either risking an assassination attempt like Viktor Yushchenko or a military assault, like Poroshenko.
All this when it is so obvious that Viktor Yanukovych was the very definition of a puppet president.
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Your words:
Porosenko's neo-nazists in Ukraine
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Oh i see now...oh boy.Sorry but this so hillariously out of context (like most comments here) that made me laugh out loud.Ok i wont call them neo-* from now on,
even though if you look again you will realize that thats how they describe themselfes (proudly),and thats exactly what they are (in heritage,practices,and ideas) but lets scratch that.
So these "pro-democracy fighters" then as we all know by now were willing pro-freedom patriots sworn to bash Putins troll and literal army and trained excessively for many years in the forests of Poland.The sig-heil gestures,the swasticas and shaved heads and all the "oh my they look like neonazis" apparel in photos we can find readily available seem to be a peculiar hipster lifestyle but kudos to them for being different and standing up to Russian lifestyle trends.
So these "really not ideological and literal descendands of Stepan Bandera" ,oops i meant pro-freedom activists "suddenly and unexpectedly" found a place the Ukrainian army because the army was in a sorry state full of Putin's robots unwilling to "bomb their fellow citizens" oops i meant bring freedom, and they were sacked,thankfully.
Some of these pro-freedom fighters were so "thick sculled" oops i meant romanticists drunk from the historical significance that were unsuited to join the army and were funded directly by various oligarchs like the patriot european citizen Kolomoisky a man of true virtue who was directly responsible for the "democratic" procedures in Odessa.Hagiography of this great man here from a communist infiltrated media.http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraines-secret-weapon-feisty-oligarch-ihor-kolomoisky-1403886665)
After all it is obvious that Odessa was nothing else but a pro-freedom movement,too bad that in democracies some people will have to be burned alive and gutted by freedom fighters.
Still waiting for those who still believe that Russia invaded and democratic forces fought back.
Tip:Dont bother, western media after their hillarious blunders to prove the unprovable backed down long ago and have been whistling in infifference lately trying to swallow their massive *uckups.Like in the Malaysian airlines insident.Really one has to wonder.If they have such strong evidence on Russia throwing a rocket why haven't the "unbiased" black-box reports seen the light of day?I mean there is no stronger case to redeem Eu and USA that this right?
Carry on,i just lost interest again.
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Poroshenko himself admitted that overthrow of Yanukovych was a coup. Besides, it wasn't Putin who took all the gold from the ukrainian central bank. George Soros paid a visit to Ukraine and now the nobel peace prize winner Obama is crazy to start (another) full scale war. Ukraine today is ruled by foreigners. NATO/EU are our true enemies here, by the time most people realize it will be too late.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/ukraine%E2%80%99s-president-poroshenko-admits-overthrow-yanukovych-was-coup (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/ukraine%E2%80%99s-president-poroshenko-admits-overthrow-yanukovych-was-coup)
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Meanwhile...
Greek Bailout Fund
1,782,092
raised by 101,062 people in 7 days
https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html (https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html)
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Only 275 billion to go.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-30/there-one-small-problem-greek-crowdfunded-bailout-campaign (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-30/there-one-small-problem-greek-crowdfunded-bailout-campaign)
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Since they were elected, what changes greek government have implemented to combat the corruption and the taxes invasion?
They spend their time in European reunions, they don't present serious proposals, how they expect their country to be sustainable? They need to be sustainable to avoid the unhealthy financial system. When they are not in reunions they go to TV and Twitter telling the europeans are terrorist. They closed the banks for a week and they go to TV telling the greeks it is Europe fault. Eurozone is not only Germany and France, it is mainly countries with smaller monthly minimum wage, and surely where you don't pay 2 euros for a coffee... That government is not showing any respect or consideration for the other countries (what kind of democracy is this?) and I think this situation is going to a wrong direction for the greek people, both for the YES or NO perspective.
They only talk of debt restructuring, how many debt restructuring they had already? They don't make changes in their country to limit their expanses, they just need to ask for debt restructuring once a year.
Honestly, if I see only in a personal interest, it's better for me that Greece don't leave the euro because it weaknen the euro.
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All this when it is so obvious that Viktor Yanukovych was the very definition of a puppet president.
but that's the norm almost anywhere.
unless you happen to be a sovereign world power your ruling elite will be always kept by the bal-ls from the world powers and the international banking system, one way or another you will be a puppet of someone who has no interest in the well being of your nation.
nobody can join the ruling elite without being "backed" by local or international power lobbies.
he may try his best to be fair but utimately he has to answer to his backers and to protect their interests, this is true in politics and even more in the business world.
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Since they were elected, what changes greek government have implemented to combat the corruption and the taxes invasion?
They spend their time in European reunions, they don't present serious proposals, how they expect their country to be sustainable? They need to be sustainable to avoid the unhealthy financial system. When they are not in reunions they go to TV and Twitter telling the europeans are terrorist. They closed the banks for a week and they go to TV telling the greeks it is Europe fault. Eurozone is not only Germany and France, it is mainly countries with smaller monthly minimum wage, and surely where you don't pay 2 euros for a coffee... That government is not showing any respect or consideration for the other countries (what kind of democracy is this?) and I think this situation is going to a wrong direction for the greek people, both for the YES or NO perspective.
They only talk of debt restructuring, how many debt restructuring they had already? They don't make changes in their country to limit their expanses, they just need to ask for debt restructuring once a year.
Honestly, if I see only in a personal interest, it's better for me that Greece don't leave the euro because it weaknen the euro.
I waited for a post like yours for days.
I plussed you just for being brutally honest (the only plus i gave in this thread).Dont necessarily agree with you in general (you have made a LOT of points -somne valid some not- regardless of whether you realize it or not), although i agree with some especially the big one where the government -almost CRIMINALLY-failed to impose its own agenda to its country, seeking excuses,but i am relieved that since this thread started you gave the most honest answer as described in the last sentence of your post.
We dont necessarily have to agree here to discuss.
But if there is honesty that can surpass this primal fear of personal loss to the point that someone will come out and openly say "im sorry for them (they messed up though) but im afraid more that it will all tumble down and come to bite me in the @ss" ,meaning that one does not afraid to expose him/herself openly, we then have a connection as people.
If we dont have at least this kind of honesty in a discussion then we have here what i described many pages back (wont quote myself) .
Over and out.
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Since they were elected, what changes greek government have implemented to combat the corruption and the taxes invasion?
A taxes invasion... :o
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Since they were elected, what changes greek government have implemented to combat the corruption and the taxes invasion?
They spend their time in European reunions, they don't present serious proposals, how they expect their country to be sustainable? They need to be sustainable to avoid the unhealthy financial system. When they are not in reunions they go to TV and Twitter telling the europeans are terrorist. They closed the banks for a week and they go to TV telling the greeks it is Europe fault. Eurozone is not only Germany and France, it is mainly countries with smaller monthly minimum wage, and surely where you don't pay 2 euros for a coffee... That government is not showing any respect or consideration for the other countries (what kind of democracy is this?) and I think this situation is going to a wrong direction for the greek people, both for the YES or NO perspective.
They only talk of debt restructuring, how many debt restructuring they had already? They don't make changes in their country to limit their expanses, they just need to ask for debt restructuring once a year.
Honestly, if I see only in a personal interest, it's better for me that Greece don't leave the euro because it weaknen the euro.
I waited for a post like yours for days.
I plussed you just for being brutally honest (the only plus i gave in this thread).Dont necessarily agree with you in general (you have made a LOT of points -somne valid some not- regardless of whether you realize it or not), although i agree with some especially the big one where the government -almost CRIMINALLY-failed to impose its own agenda to its country, seeking excuses,but i am relieved that since this thread started you gave the most honest answer as described in the last sentence of your post.
We dont necessarily have to agree here to discuss.
But if there is honesty that can surpass this primal fear of personal loss to the point that someone will come out and openly say "im sorry for them (they messed up though) but im afraid more that it will all tumble down and come to bite me in the @ss" ,meaning that one does not afraid to expose him/herself openly, we then have a connection as people.
If we dont have at least this kind of honesty in a discussion then we have here what i described many pages back (wont quote myself) .
Over and out.
Speaking about honesty, I have no problem quoting myself:
I have no connection with Greece, let alone with PASOK (as per google translate), except for my falling euro savings.
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Poroshenko himself admitted that overthrow of Yanukovych was a coup. Besides, it wasn't Putin who took all the gold from the ukrainian central bank. George Soros paid a visit to Ukraine and now the nobel peace prize winner Obama is crazy to start (another) full scale war. Ukraine today is ruled by foreigners. NATO/EU are our true enemies here, by the time most people realize it will be too late.
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/ukraine%E2%80%99s-president-poroshenko-admits-overthrow-yanukovych-was-coup[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/ukraine%E2%80%99s-president-poroshenko-admits-overthrow-yanukovych-was-coup[/url])
and while they're at it they also appointed the georgian clown Saakashvili as governor of Odessa, he even got the Ukrainian citizenship now.
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Says someone with WWII obsessions :)
[url]http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-european-far-right-parties-converge-in-st-petersburg/517839.html[/url] ([url]http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/news/article/russian-european-far-right-parties-converge-in-st-petersburg/517839.html[/url])
actually the european far right supports russia as a counterbalance to NATO and the EU, not because of the cold war or communism or WW2 or whatever happened before 1989.
said that, Putin has never did anything in favour of russian or foreign neo * and nationalists in general, actually under his rule russia approved several anti-racism laws designed to keep the far right at bay .. the kind of national pride encouraged under Putin is of the "czarist" type.
And you belive that?
Lol.
This is why white supremacists like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor are guest spekers, while democratic protesters are detained and beaten.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/03/23/russia-hosts-fascist-forum-in-st-petersburg/
Somehow, Kremlin belives having the world anti-fascist mononopoly, treats as fascist all those opposing its imperialist ("czarist") nostalgic ambitions, while ecouraging and paying all those knuckleheads to represent its interests in Europe and undermine the union.
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Timeout!
So funny, watch it: https://youtu.be/ur5fGSBsfq8
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Apparently we all didnīt get it. Greece is not voting on their financial future, they are taking part in a celebration instead.
I sincerly wish Greece all the best, it will be a very hard and long path no matter what they choose.
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Varoufakis is a bellend. He's called the measures of the eurogroup terrorism. At the same time he expects them to give him more money. He's a bellend.
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Yes, calling us all terrorists and criminals will certainly encourage the Europeans in the other 18 countries to vote to give Greece more money.
But depending on the vote, he will no longer be there tomorrow. But who knows who comes after him?
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
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Yes, calling us all terrorists and criminals will certainly encourage the Europeans in the other 18 countries to vote to give Greece more money.
But depending on the vote, he will no longer be there tomorrow. But who knows who comes after him?
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
,,, communists or golden dawn...will be next -
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I guess then even more people will emigrate :(
But in the end it is their decision. It is their country, nobody else can pull them out of their own mess.
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Yes, calling us all terrorists and criminals will certainly encourage the Europeans in the other 18 countries to vote to give Greece more money.
But depending on the vote, he will no longer be there tomorrow. But who knows who comes after him?
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
He didn't call YOU terrorist but those bureaucrats in European Commission,International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank! and YES I agree they are terrorists and criminals( not as bad as ISIS but still...). Sorry but that's my opinion and don't have time and energy to explain why I think they're high class criminals
Best,
Alex
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Yes, calling us all terrorists and criminals will certainly encourage the Europeans in the other 18 countries to vote to give Greece more money.
But depending on the vote, he will no longer be there tomorrow. But who knows who comes after him?
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
He didn't call YOU terrorist but those bureaucrats in European Commission,International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank! and YES I agree they are terrorists and criminals( not as bad as ISIS but still...). Sorry but that's my opinion and don't have time and energy to explain why I think they're high class criminals
Best,
Alex
...exactly - eu bureaucrats are terrorists - no doubt about that...
- cobalt - you are good photographer, nice girl - with good will - but you are vary naive...
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Yes, calling us all terrorists and criminals will certainly encourage the Europeans in the other 18 countries to vote to give Greece more money.
But depending on the vote, he will no longer be there tomorrow. But who knows who comes after him?
I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
He didn't call YOU terrorist but those bureaucrats in European Commission,International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank! and YES I agree they are terrorists and criminals( not as bad as ISIS but still...). Sorry but that's my opinion and don't have time and energy to explain why I think they're high class criminals
Best,
Alex
I donīt know Alex, the way they have been attacking Germany, Merkel and Schäuble is an attack on all the millions of Germans that democratically elected them. These are our chosen representatives and if you continuosly attack and insult them, you are insulting all of us here in Germany.
I understand what you are saying, but I really donīt think anywhere in the other 18 eurozone countries are V and T very popular. Just read the comments in the foreign press in these countries.
Like many I found them interesting when they started out, I thought they would be the ones who will now get things done, tax the rich, cut the military spending, go after the church and their extreme financial privileges, but all I saw was an endless waste of time and European resources. And amazing arrogance coupled with misleading populism.
Europe and Brussels are buraucratic and probably quite formal, but I am still happy and proud to be part of the European union. I really wouldnīt want to live anywhere else.
If the people of Greece donīt want to be part of Europe, that is sad, but in the end that is their decision. Sometimes you need to try something and if it doesnīt work, it doesnīt work.
ETA: @ferdinand
my family lives across, the globe, have been refugees and had to leave several countries because of civil war, dictatorships, had to rebuild their lives over and over.. etc...etc...but if you think I am naive, no problem.
I donīt take anything here personal :)
We all have our own experiences and I love hearing your views.
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In the meantime V has decided that all the other 18 countries will give him a deal in 24 hours if Greece votes no. Isnīt that convenient? Why would we even bother to let our parliaments decide? We should just make him the master of Europe instead.
How can people believe him? They guy said there will be no capital controls and 4 hours later he introduced a limit of just 60 euros a day.
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@cobalt
... politically naive - to be precise -
..fritz already explained it - endless loans are sophisticated way of occupation...
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No Comment
Here's Greece's finance minister in 1953, canceling 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI0n5p8WEAA-8iJ.jpg)
Cobalt any comment on this photo?
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...good old black and white photo
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I donīt know Alex, the way they have been attacking Germany, Merkel and Schäuble is an attack on all the millions of Germans that democratically elected them. These are our chosen representatives and if you continuosly attack and insult them, you are insulting all of us here in Germany.
Did anyone accuse the German people?
Sorry for breaking this to you but thιs sentence right here is undoubtedly the philosophy of totalitarianism.
Since when your government and it's views reflect your people as a whole (even the voters if not all)?
Do you see your people as an entity with common traits and set of mind?By attacking (criticizing actually) your government we attack you?Thats fascism plain and simple and im sorry to say it bluntly.
I dont care how you view yourself but your opinion of the world and society reflected on your writings is hobbesian at its best and fascist at its worst.
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Why do the few people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them, instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.
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No Comment
Here's Greece's finance minister in 1953, canceling 50% of Germany's debt. Because it was the right thing to do
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI0n5p8WEAA-8iJ.jpg)
Cobalt any comment on this photo?
Times change. Completely different situation. Utter fallacy. Step into the 21st century.
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Why do the few people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them, instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.
Speak for yourself and dont try to encapsulate (conveniently) who talks more sense here, and who gets attacked by whom and for what reason.
You are the one in this thread that steps in and tries to moderate the conversation when you feel that is steering away from the general consensus.
I know that you like cobalt's views but thats your business and if cobalt or anyone else posting here makes sense or not that here is for us(EDIT:for "ME to judge" is more appropriate) to judge,this conversation is not a live political debate.
You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?
Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.
This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
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Why do the few people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them, instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.
... I don t attack person - I attack opinion -
... at least,unlike you, - cobalt has some opinion...
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Well, the NO wins with 52 %.
Let's wait and see.
For a truth democracy, all the people in the eurozone should now vote in a referendum if they agree with the future new decisions, whatever they are.
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Oh thank god,it looks like we might get that 3rd memorandum after all.
Wait what.....
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Basically:
- they didn't repay the 1.6 millions they should have in the June 30th to the IMF,
- they didn't do nothing considerable since they were elected to combat corruption and tax evasion, to increase income taxes and lower the public expenses,
- their country is in recession since they were elected,
- they want more debt restructuring,
- they want more money (!!!)
- they don't want to increment changes in their country (like everything is ok, right!)
looking good 8)
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For a truth democracy, all the people in the eurozone should now vote in a referendum if they agree with the future new decisions, whatever they are.
I thought i had read everything until i saw this.
Other countries to vote whether or not the internal decisions affecting a country should be applied and be executed through its own institutions or not?
Do you realize what is the Eurozone exactly (by its own standards not mine) and what is happening in the world in general?
I mean the basics of the Eurozone constitution?
Do you reazile what is it that makes a country, a country in the Eurozone, and not just some piece of land belonging to a country called Europe (Europe is not a country,yet) .
Does your country have its own courts and parliament or they have suddenly moved to Brussels?
Guys seriously this is no joke.
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Basically:
- they didn't repay the 1.6 millions they should have in the June 30th to the IMF,
- they didn't do nothing considerable since they were elected to combat corruption and tax evasion, to increase income taxes and lower the public expenses,
- their country is in recession since they were elected,
- they want more debt restructuring,
- they want more money (!!!)
- they don't want to increment changes in their country (like everything is ok, right!)
looking good 8)
Moreover has anyone bothered to understand what Varoufakis' miraculous recovery plan is?
I just watched one of his conferences.
Basically he wants a piece of my private savings!
He is concerned that, in some parts of Europe, people have the tendency to save more. He calls these savings "untapped resources".
He says that he is not talking about public, but private money.
He says that he wants the ECB to stimulate the flow of those saving into bonds and those bonds to be used in growing the Greek economy.
1. He forgets that, after all, "public money" is not different that "private money", since it comes from private citizens who pay their taxes.
2. These savings might be untapped resources, indeed, but it is not his business what I do with my money and who I trust with it!
Let ME "tap" my own resources.
If I want riskier investments, I could always find better deals than seeing my hard earned savings risked in a Greek blackhole, under a government unwilling to restrain its spending.
All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into an unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.
To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will (most probably) not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!
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All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into a unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.
To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will most probably not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!
Part 1.Throwing money in an "unsustainable hole" (because of the public debt, the newly discovered boogeyman of the post 1998 economy) is exactly what the eurozone forces the Greek government to do and we are forced to under the monetary policy.You are totally confused here.You havent understood anything about the Eurozone's monetary policy yet you embark on this conversation with convenient half truths at best and expect people to continue this conversation seriously.Have you seen charts of Germany's public debt (its HUGE) and have you understood why or how this is conveniently hidden "in a closet" and makes Germany act like they can dictate the monetary policy to others and not themselves?because if they do hang tight.
Ill help you understand this by giving hints.What upsets Merkel if Greece leaves the Eurozone and why?If Spain were to leave what would happen?If italy had capitals controls who would interest from that and who wouldn't?
Part 2. To keep it simple?You make the hillarious fallacy that everyone who has no knowledge of politics and economy makes.You confuse a nation's economics with an individuals economics.
Hints to embark further.
Countries do NOT default.Individuals and corporations do.Banks do or did until 2008.Why is that?
So structural reforms are politics and public debt and borrowing is economics right?
Wrong.
Both are politics.When i said in another thread that these moronic neoliberals in Brussels dream of a neo-feudal Europe i wasnt joking.
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Why do the few people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them, instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.
Speak for yourself and dont try to encapsulate (conveniently) who talks more sense here, and who gets attacked by whom and for what reason.
You are the one in this thread that steps in and tries to moderate the conversation when you feel that is steering away from the general consensus.
I know that you like cobalt's views but thats your business and if cobalt or anyone else posting here makes sense or not that here is for us(EDIT:for "ME to judge" is more appropriate) to judge,this conversation is not a live political debate.
You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?
Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.
This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
t
thank you for proving my point.
And Are you now showing a quote from me trying to keep the thread on topic and twisting that into something it's not?
My my
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Why do the few people here defending the Greeks constantly attack the person who doesn't agree with them, instead of the comment. I've seen Cobalt talk more sense than anyone else in the last 3 pages.
Speak for yourself and dont try to encapsulate (conveniently) who talks more sense here, and who gets attacked by whom and for what reason.
You are the one in this thread that steps in and tries to moderate the conversation when you feel that is steering away from the general consensus.
I know that you like cobalt's views but thats your business and if cobalt or anyone else posting here makes sense or not that here is for us(EDIT:for "ME to judge" is more appropriate) to judge,this conversation is not a live political debate.
You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?
Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.
This thread is about Greece. If you want to talk about Portugal, its best to open a new thread. Please.
t
thank you for proving my point.
And Are you now showing a quote from me trying to keep the thread on topic and twisting that into something it's not?
My my
Are we playing a game of verbal ping pong here,or is this personal to you for some reason that i cannon comprehend?
Is this a thumbs up war? because it looks like so.
Quoting me and saying that im just doing the same thing as you did just proves my point as well,but i am not acting as a moderator here or defending/cheerleading others.
Again stop being anyone's lawyer.
You could just as easily explain why germany's debt got a "haircut" then and why not now (or would it now if there is/was one?) but you have jumped in this thread in defcon mode from the start
spewing ignorance and coveted hate disguised as realistic opinion and knowledge.
No wonder this thread feels and is extremely one-sided.
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@cobalt
... politically naive - to be precise -
..fritz already explained it - endless loans are sophisticated way of occupation...
Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then. At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt. They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.
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Varoufakis is a bellend. He's called the measures of the eurogroup terrorism. At the same time he expects them to give him more money. He's a bellend.
and yet i've the feeling he's making history.
the latest exit polls say the NO are over 60% so it's getting very funny now ... will greece embrace the BRICs and Russia ? will they find a last minute deal with Germany ? or it will all bust into a greek tragedy ?
interesting times ahead, this is a big smack in the face of the eurocrats and they will seek revenge as soon as possible just to teach a lesson to anyone else willing to play the same game.
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I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
the only option would be a military Junta or a neo-fascist government led by the far right (Golden Dawn).
but don't worry, Syriza now is very popular, Putin is keeping a low profile but you can bet they already promised greece any kind of monetary aid in case of serious troubles so they know their ass is covered no matter the outcome of this farce.
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Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then. At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt. They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.
England did exactly the same a few centuries ago, bankrupting the italian bankers and crashing the whole banking system, after that they also created the Bank of England and the rest is history.
Argentina went in defaut and is having it rough but they're still alive, Zimbabwe/Rhodesia is in bad shape but still there ...
all these forecasts about imminent doom and gloom are totally overblown especially considering how much the world is different nowadays and how quickly money and goods can be moved in and out of a country.
the BRICs, the SCO, and the new banking system launched by China were designed precisely to counteract the EU/US/NATO grip, it's logical that they will welcome greece with open arms, just as Nato did in the 50s when greece was third world.
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I hope they vote for freedom. And it looks like that.
This whole EU non-sense did enough damage, not only to Greece. Greece: 60% unemployment amongst the youth, Spain: 50%, Portugal 33%, in Germany you see people looking for food in the Trash - not just the typical homeless, but old people, retired ones in good clothes, surveillance everywhere, freedom gets restricted on all sides for the benefit of some bankers, cash payments got meanwhile limited by law in Italy, France and Spain (Limits between 1000 and 3000 ), in one country (so far, in Cyprus), people got expropriated on their savings, other countries do not plan anymore to join the zone (Bulgaria, Hungary is doubting,....)...enough, I`d say.
Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...
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I mean, they elected him and Tsirpas. If things get worse, who will be next?
the only option would be a military Junta or a neo-fascist government led by the far right (Golden Dawn).
but don't worry, Syriza now is very popular, Putin is keeping a low profile but you can bet they already promised greece any kind of monetary aid in case of serious troubles so they know their ass is covered no matter the outcome of this farce.
You would think that by now people have realized that living in dictatorship is nothing to desire. And yet here is a country that seems to be walking with glowing eyes toward it.
It was clever the way they made their "referendum" so short term. All the greeks that live abroad didnīt have enough time to go back to vote and apparently calling half the population that wanted to vote "yes" as undemocratic traitors really worked.
But it is a decision by the Greek population. So they will live with their decision.
I just hope my money is not going there. There are so many places in Europe and the world where it can do more good. They even called the loans from my tax money "terrorism".
They should be ashamed of themselves, especially because they see all the refugees from Syria, Yemen, or Afghanistan who really live under terrorism.
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Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...
Greece the next Switzerland...of course, of course, we will all go and trust our money to Greek banks...just like the greek population.
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I just hope my money is not going there. There are so many places in Europe and the world where it can do more good. They even called the loans from my tax money "terrorism".
Obviously, I do not agree that anyone is using insulting words, but if you analyze the mechanisms which work behind those "loans" and "rescue" packages they are indeed tools of oppression of a entire country. You trap them in a debt cycle to suck out all the productivity of a country and make it impossible for them to leave. Same happend a decade ago in South america.
And never forget that almost nothing of the money of the creditors went to the people - not directly, nor indirectly (infrastructure).
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Meanwhile, in Switzerland, Norway, Iceland,...economies are healthy and doing well...
Greece the next Switzerland...of course, of course, we will all go and trust our money to Greek banks...just like the greek population.
Greece will never be like switzerland. Obviously, the mentality is very different and they will be always a "poorer" country, but those countries demonstrate and question due to their success the claims of the EU group that they (EU) hold the ultimate solution in terms of economic success - at least thats what they try to make people believe.
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Now lets see how will EU be accepting democracy :)
It goes to show that all of theirs independent research about the referendum were faked as always and Mr Schultz open threatening to the whole nation before referendum luckily didn't work ;)
Now I just hope other nations will follow the trend
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Now lets see how will EU be accepting democracy :)
It goes to show that all of theirs independent research about the referendum were faked as always and Mr Schultz open threatening to the whole nation before referendum luckily didn't work ;)
Now I just hope other nations will follow the trend
I fully agree.
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Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive. That's sad.
Why do you keep thinking you are the IMF or European Central Bank? You are just a regular German citizen.
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Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive. That's sad.
The Problem is too the german media. They provide false and very subjective information, constantly bashing Greece, the People and even manipulating facts.
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Now EUSSR will punish Greece and make an example for Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland.
Congratulations to the greeks who gave the middle finger to the troika.
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All these leftist economist believe that if you throw money into a unsustainable economy, it will magically get better. No, it will not! Not without structural reforms.
To keep it simple, if you don't sell your photos on Shutterstock, borrowing money to buy more fancy cameras and lenses, will most probably not improve your sales. You better get your s**t together and improve your photography skills first!
Part 1.Throwing money in an "unsustainable hole" (because of the public debt, the newly discovered boogeyman of the post 1998 economy) is exactly what the eurozone forces the Greek government to do and we are forced to under the monetary policy.You are totally confused here.You havent understood anything about the Eurozone's monetary policy yet you embark on this conversation with convenient half truths at best and expect people to continue this conversation seriously.Have you seen charts of Germany's public debt (its HUGE) and have you understood why or how this is conveniently hidden "in a closet" and makes Germany act like they can dictate the monetary policy to others and not themselves?because if they do hang tight.
Ill help you understand this by giving hints.What upsets Merkel if Greece leaves the Eurozone and why?If Spain were to leave what would happen?If italy had capitals controls who would interest from that and who wouldn't?
Part 2. To keep it simple?You make the hillarious fallacy that everyone who has no knowledge of politics and economy makes.You confuse a nation's economics with an individuals economics.
Hints to embark further.
Countries do NOT default.Individuals and corporations do.Banks do or did until 2008.Why is that?
So structural reforms are politics and public debt and borrowing is economics right?
Wrong.
Both are politics.When i said in another thread that these moronic neoliberals in Brussels dream of a neo-feudal Europe i wasnt joking.
The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!
I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.
Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!
Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!
My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
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Now EUSSR will punish Greece and make an example for Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland.
Congratulations to the greeks who gave the middle finger to the troika.
Ireland reformed their spending under the trojka and actually cut the program short and are basically standing on their own feet again. They needed 90 billion but 'only' used 70bn and is paying back quicker as planned.
230 billion euro of other peoples money was pumped into Greece and it will never be paid back, and that seems to be ok for you guys. So the troja dont want to put more money into Greece. Why are people getting so upset over the that? Greece says NO to the reforms. Great. Divorce seems to please both parties.
The pro Greece users here got what they wanted but still seem upset for some reason.
Oh yeah: They gave the middle finger alright, now lets see if they are willing to deal with the consequences. See if it is all the better standing on their own feet.
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This whole EU non-sense did enough damage, not only to Greece. Greece: 60% unemployment amongst the youth, Spain: 50%, Portugal 33%, in Germany you see people looking for food in the Trash - not just the typical homeless, but old people, retired ones in good clothes,
The unemployment in Portugal is much higher than official numbers, especially amongst the youth.
To account for the unemployment it's taken into consideration the people inscribed in the Employment Center. The question is that many, many people don't inscribe themselves there, and many that do give up after the end of the unemployment benefits because they search for employment on their own, and the offer of employment in those centers is small. The vast majority of companies do not use it to search for employees.
Plus, over 5% (!!!) of the Portuguese population emigrated in the last years, many of them young adults with superior education, and those do not count toward the statistics.
It's estimated that in the near decades, due to the low number of births in large as consequence of the crisis, and emigration of the young (most will hardly come back), the portuguese population will shrink from 10 million to 6 million!
The EU and the Euro has been in my opinion, in the way it acted towards Portugal, a catastrophe.
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Cobalt, most of your comments about the people of Greece have been so unpleasant and even offensive. That's sad.
Why do you keep thinking you are the IMF or European Central Bank? You are just a regular German citizen.
I am a regular european citizen. Maybe if you bother to read the comment sections of other european forums, online papers etc...you will find I am not unusual at all.
Why do you believe that I should not have a voice about what happens with my tax money? I am a voter and tax payer in the European community. Is it undemocratic if I want my tax money spent responsibly? Or that I donīt enjoy being called a terrorist?
And I have family in Greece that is affected by the current chaos. If things get worse and they lose their jobs, I will also have to send money directly to them. But how? When there is no working banking system? One of my cousins sent money to her sisters account in London. 10 days ago. But the money hasnīt arrived, is being held "somewhere" on the way. Wonīt come back to her account either.
This is what I have been discussing with my family over the last weeks and of course tonight. None of them have voted No, but they all have jobs in the private sector, not government companies. But what about the pensions, when they stop being paid? So we have a lot of worries and it looks like more from my family will try to move to the UK. I canīt help them there, if they want to work in Germany they would need to be fluent in German. But they all are good with English, many studied in the UK or the US.
I am also looking at my budget, seeing what I can set aside for emergencies. Of course I am not the only one, everyone in my family is doing that. We have done these things before, somehow we always manage.
So if you find my comments unpleasant, that is is up to you. But for me what is going on is not an abstract theoretical thing, we really need to make a living.
And we canīt wait until total chaos is there, we have to move early. There will be a flood of talented people going abroad, there will be a lot of competition for any jobs for people who are fluent in Greek and English.
I see on TV that people are partying, or even say they are now better "Europeans". I donīt see any parties anywhere else in Europe.
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@cobalt
... politically naive - to be precise -
..fritz already explained it - endless loans are sophisticated way of occupation...
Please explain why they have asked for all those loans and still want more then. At some point when you keep borrowing money, you have to take responsibility for your own debt. They could of got out of the mess they created but now they have the option to print their own currency and that looks like all they have left now.
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The simple and widely known answer is what George Papandreou did in 2011.In 2011 in the Eurozone every country was ready to start whistling about its debt (which everyone knew from back then that it is unsustainable for every European country) and about to embark in a controlled game of economical inflation (kicking down the can) ,as long as there is primary surplus (on paper) .That was the deal (euro coin monetary policy)
And what did that neoliberal halfwit do instead?He decided that greece should be the only country that should jump in first in a puddle of crap and start repaying this debt that noone has,can,and will repay ever ever.
Then came the IMF (had already agreed to the imf deal even before the elections) and the rest is history.
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The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!
I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.
Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!
Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!
My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
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Why are the countries whose citizens live worse than the Greeks, that pay more taxes than the Greeks and retire later that the Greeks be in solidarity with the Greeks who vote in a government that blatantly flirts with a Russia that is a direct threat to safety of some of these countries?
Syriza won in Greece. And it has a mandate to govern in Greece. Not the money of European taxpayers and the EU.
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The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!
I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.
Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!
Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!
My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!
Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politics and myths for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.
They play referendum and other political games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within, because it's always somebody else's fault.
That's politics, indeed. These irresponsible politics, with no link to the real economy, are the root cause of all bubbles and crises.
And today's Greece is the perfect example.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Why are the countries whose citizens live worse than the Greeks, that pay more taxes than the Greeks and retire later that the Greeks be in solidarity with the Greeks who vote in a government that blatantly flirts with a Russia that is a direct threat to safety of some of these countries?
Syriza won in Greece. And it has a mandate to govern in Greece. Not the money of European taxpayers and the EU.
I consider your questions honest but sadly you are typing a long sentence with 4 different ans contradictory things mixed in and conveniently oversimplified at that, and seriously who can discuss like this without making this thread an irrelevant twitter feed?
There are countries who live better that Greece as well and corruption comes in all forms which point does this prove?if we disccuss the Eurozone Greece's bubble bursted harder that Portugals for example (and for different reasons) ,and for reasons i explained vaguely in my earlier post,and that burst made more noise that any other country in the Eurozone.
Spain's bubble for example was the housing loans and in Greece it was the public sector.
Spain is a huge economy unlike Greece and there was as much corruption there like in Greece and like in Germany if i may say so (siemens,dirty money by bribing governments) .Christoforakos is a wanted fugitive in Greece sheltered by germany who refuses to extradite him to Greece to save siemens some face as well as the political system of germany (and huge public outrage) .
The other thing about Russia.If you dont understand basic politics and why a politician has to create a "media event" by staging bargains and negotiations with other countries then i cant help you with that.If it wasn't Russia but brasil would it make a difference?Yes it would because apparently Russia has struck a sensitive chord in your mind.Maybe thats what Tsipras was going for and i cant help it ,as much as i loathe him, but to recognise this clever bargaining move.
The last sentence makes no sense whatsoever.Do you understand what is happening at all and who is giving loans to whom,for what exactly,where do these go,and what is the catch 22 of the whole situation?Do you really understand where the European constitution begins and ends, and to WHOM does the judiciary and the executive power of each country belong ?You are so oblivious as to what is happening and yet you feel like you need to follow the curve and bash a country to which you have no attachment and knowledge of its happenings because the whole eurozone fracas scares you personally?
I see people in this thread shouting "The Greeks steal my money" .
I can understand that but that doesnt mean that people aren't directly and wholly responsible for being ignorant,and in this thread they try to pass this as logical and wide known facts.
Goddamnit i feel like defending a government which i dont like ONE BIT (but for different reasons that most people here) .
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The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!
I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.
Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!
Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!
My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!
Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politcs for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.
They play referendum games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within,
because it's always somebody else's fault.
That's politics, indeed. And this has nothing to do with a healthy triving economy. These irresponsible politics are the root cause of all bubbles and crisis. And todays Greece is the perfect example.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
Yes apparently everything is pretty clear in your mind.
Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.Physical laws is all the economy is,but the politicians came and ruined this simple cause/effect balance sciense perfect system thingy.
You can live and thrive in this existensial crisis (funny that you are the theologist here and you are totally oblivious),and i hope the best to you.
Just bear in mind that one day you might wake up and open a book (which i find unlikely) and realize that the market that you are evangelizing
as being diluted by leftists and communists is the best you are going to get because if im not mistaken the western world is being ruled by liberals during the last 40 years with the same
ideas as you.
40 years these poor men had to implement their ideas and they get sabotaged all the time by socialists and leftists thats why this model isnt working to its full potential.
And Greece is the last communistic/capitalistic country i suppose and tsipras has put a veto to its reforms so that we will never join the rest of the western world and insted bring you all down with us?
Seriously what else am i going to witness in this thread as undisputed truth....
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The money does not only come from Germany.
For example, 2 millions are from Portugal.
"to recognise this clever bargaining move." That's the problem. It's only about moves. We don't see him doing anything anyway.
And Varoufakis moves are about taking pictures all smiling and sexy with his wife for a VIP magazine and playing the hero on his twitter account.
Look at him. He acts like he still is at the high school classes.
I was expecting this government would do a real change. For months, what measures have they implemented to combat corruption, tax evasion, to increase tax revenue, to lower public expenses?
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJLqIMsUwAAib4Y.jpg)
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The money does not only come from Germany.
For example, 2 millions are from Portugal.
"to recognise this clever bargaining move." That's the problem. It's only about moves. We don't see him doing anything anyway.
And Varoufakis moves are about taking pictures all smiling and sexy with his wife for a VIP magazine and playing the hero on his twitter account.
Look at him. He acts like he still is at the high school classes.
I was expecting this government would do a real change. For months, what measures have they implemented to combat corruption, tax evasion, to increase tax revenue, to lower public expenses?
What you should be asking ist why is it getting loans who pays for them who collects interest and what does it mean for other countries?
Varoufakis is a narcissist alright and with a self imposed "cool teacher" style but aesthetic criteria do not belong in a political discussion because seriously look at that druncard clown Juncker who is making appearances in Eurogroups drunk out of his mind while behaving like a moron and slapping everyone thinking eurogroups are a hotel party.
Whom would you trust?
Exactly,this is irrelevant.
I was too expecting the government to do a real change too,but that is not the point of this conversation because these changes have nothing to do with the point in discussion here.They have to do with me my friends and my family but not you -directly- .
Spain is making reforms by kicking elderly people out of their houses,giving them to the banks,and obligating them to pay the rest of the loans as well,it could just as well do a top down payment cut to create this logistics positive surplus that is the goal in this tight corset that is the monetary policy of the Eurozone, and noone would have given a * if they called this socialism communism or Darth vader politics.But misanthropic policies such as these are seen as "reforms" as we have witnessed here.I rest my case.
Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum the rest is germany's ethical talks to dress the fact that austerity policies happen to bad boys.Again i am waiting for the day where merkel will have to convince germany's middle class that they were lazy as the Greeks and lived above their capacity.
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Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum
IMHO you are wrong, because if Greece does not become sustainable, it will ask for more and more money. They ask for debt restructuring because obviously they can't pay for it. Greece had already an haircut on 2012. And they will always remember the german debts from the world war II. If Greece leave the eurozone, which I hope not, it will be worse. Don't even expect IMF to loan more money to the country since Greece didn't repay them on June 30.
It's like if the portuguese would expect debt forgiveness from France because of the napoleonic invasions.
If Greece had already implemented significant changes, that would make the country sustainable, another debt restructuring could be expected, but without measures, it sounds like they will ask for it every 3 years because the debt will not stop increasing.
I am not defending the financial system here, I despise it. That's why I believe the countries need to be sustainable for themself, to be free from it.
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Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum
IMHO you are wrong, because if Greece does not become sustainable, it will ask for more and more money. They ask for debt restructuring because obviously they can't pay for it. Greece had already an haircut on 2012. And they will always remember the german debts from the world war II. If Greece leave the eurozone, which I hope not, it will be worse. Don't even expect IMF to loan more money to the country since Greece didn't repay them on June 30.
It's like if the portuguese would expect debt forgiveness from France because of the napoleonic invasions.
If Greece had already implemented significant changes, that would make the country sustainable, another debt restructuring could be expected, but without measures, it sounds like they will ask for it every 3 years because the debt will not stop increasing.
I am not defending the financial system here, I despise it. That's why I believe the countries need to be sustainable for themself, to be free from it.
Again everything is mixed up here.You despise the financial system but dont understand it at all.Including very basic politics.You said in an earlier post that people of Europe should vote now if they accept the Greek referendum vote results.Thats was cute but hillariously out of context.You dont even understand how democratic countries work and what are the limits and rules of the Eurozone as a constitution and the limits of executive and legislative powers in one's country,and yet you negotiate this political situation in this thread without the basic tools like most people here who unlike you at least are so certain of their ideas,and logical conclusions disregarding the fact the in other places their ideas would be laughable at best.Then i guess im stupid for posting here,but thats my error which i will correct after that post.
Look,noone can and will pay for it's debt never, never ever.The debt is irrelevant (unless ones political system is stupid enough to make others use it as a leverage against it like papandreou in Greece who suicided politically dragging the political system along with him)
Thats why every country in the Eurozone has started whistling indifferently about its debt (coming from various bubbles,loans,banks,public debt etc etc) and succumbed to the primary surplus rule (struggling its economies to an extend) because that way everyone has in a sense stated that sometime in the near future he will start repaying its debt,which he wont.Argentina btw payed imf in full like some Asian countries,Turkey included, but they had their own currency and are different situations to the point that i cant analyze this here.
So every country has a big debt (germany's debt is HUGE if you look at the public hospitals debt alone) i have mentioned this in earlier posts but if you dont understand what any of this means im sorry,you can continue this discussion with your peers where everything is prertty much justified in a logical manner.I have explained a whole lot including why Greece in 2011 jumped in the $hit and how Papandreou decided to pay the public debt like a moron while everyone else was whistling (and rightly so) and why Greece has to repay the the IMF (a price a few economies can pay) .Thats why it is forced to get loans not to support its economy but to repay its debt,that shouldnt have been repayed in the first place.If Papandreou hadnt done this we would be in the same boat as Portugal actually even better.
When that moron Papandreou introduced IMF, germany was horrified.Then why did they agree you ask since they knew that this would struggle Greece and force the Eurozone to start loaning Greece's debt?I mean it would make them look like Darth Vaders if they were to start this trend (thankfully noone followed but there was pressures nonetheless).
And thats where the big question that everyone should ask is.But this is a mixture of politics and economy,and most people here dont want to do that.Their fantacies about the world dont consider this kind of talk relevant,and sadly this community here is not a place for such talk.A guy a few posts ago considers the economy a science,which is nothing more that an empirical
social science (science coming last) .
Well scr#w that i have better things to do than typing 5000 words every time.
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Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.
sure, like all the banks and institutions that should have gone bankrupt in 2008 but they've been bailed out with hundreds of billions of $ as they were "too big to fail" as it would have crushed the whole house of cards.
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Oh yeah: They gave the middle finger alright, now lets see if they are willing to deal with the consequences. See if it is all the better standing on their own feet.
they will print an alternative currency, Varoufakis talked about a sort of "IOU".
but what really matters is what Russia is going to do now, will they bail out Greece or not ?
and by the way, as Greece is a Nato member, can the Nato members allow one of their occupied territories to become a third world country overnight ?
of course not, and you can bet in one way or another greece will be bailed out, no matter if with Euros or Dollars.
there's no way for greece to end up like Lybia or Haiti, the EU and Nato will have to find a fix, if they don't Russia is already at the gates.
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So every country has a big debt
again ?
even Japan is full of debts .. yes ... but with itself !
their only risk is the eventual devaluation of the Yen, which already happened anyway.
it's the ECB printing money for the EU and for each EU country, they can print 1000 trillions tomorrow if they need to, the Euro will lose some value over time but that's that, as no modern currency is backed by gold anymore, it's paper and bits into a cental bank computer, its inherent value lasts just as long as somebody is willing to accept it as a trading currency.
greece printing IOU or new Drachmas or silver coins follows the same logic, they can flood the country overnight with trillions of new money and the greeks will have no other choice than use it as a de facto new currency, no matter if it's going to be worth sh-it in over time, all they need is for Russia to accept it as a serious currency and to exchange Rubles with it.
Argentina is still using their new Pesos which nobody wants and yet they're still alive despite the mess going on after their default.
show me one single country that went down the drain because of a too high debt, even Zimbabwe is still there and now is in bed with China.
moral of the story, greece will suffer but won't become a failed state anytime soon.
it's the EU that now has a hot potato and no easy way out.
the whole eastern europe have been taken into the EU sphere in the 90s after the fall of the USSR, nobody wondered if their books were genuine or cooked of if they could ever repay all the loans, it was a political decision and now it's too late to cry, what's done is done, it was a risky investment and there's nothing strange if an investment turns into a loss .. if you think greece is in bad shape then what about Poland or Romania ?
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BREAKING NEWS
Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis resigns despite referendum no vote
Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted partners, for my
absence from its meetings, he wrote.
The prime minister Alexis Tsipras judged this to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the ministry of finance today.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns-despite-referendum-no-vote?CMP=fb_gu (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns-despite-referendum-no-vote?CMP=fb_gu)
(this thread has no end...)
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This is how well informed people are about the countries in financial crisis and how good their press is. Defamation, stereotypes and publication of the convenient truths.
http://www.businessinsider.com/yanis-varoufakis-middle-finger-controversy-real-fake-bohmermann-jauch-2015-3 (http://www.businessinsider.com/yanis-varoufakis-middle-finger-controversy-real-fake-bohmermann-jauch-2015-3)
"Even though Varoufakis has strongly denied the allegations, most people believed and continue to believe the footage is real."
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2740082/images/n-VAROUFAKIS-large570.jpg)
(http://eu.greekreporter.com/files/Yanis_Varoufakis_fake_finger_video.jpg)
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...Wolfgang Schäuble should resign now and show some goodwill...
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some interesting stuff on Varoufakis personal blog :
http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/ (http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/)
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Is it only me who doesn't really care what Greece or for that matter the EU does or doesn't do. It's up to them how they run things. I just don't want to be dragged into it.
As far as I can see, the EU is a failed, left wing body of failed, left wing idealists. Who just happen to have made themselves very wealthy and powerful as individuals in the process of screwing Europe up.
The "Common Market" was a good idea, but once the people in charge obtained too much power, and it became the EU it always was a disaster waiting to happen for all of us in Europe.
And yes, I'm from the UK. Someone earlier in this thread said we're smug. We could be if we were sat outside.
I'm also aware that this is a simplistic view. There again simple answers are usually the best ones.
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Le Pen and Faradje cheering for the 'no' vote in Greece!
" After the first estimates of the outcome of the referendum in Greece, the leaders of nationalist parties of France and Britain were quick to celebrate. "The EU plan dies. It is fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people against the political and economic bullying from Brussels, "he wrote on his personal twitter account Faradje the nationalist British UKIP party. On the same wavelength as head of the National Front in France, Marine Le Pen wrote on twitter that: "The victory of" no "in Greek referendum is a victory of the people against the European oligarchy. It is a "no" freedom, revolution against European terms they want to impose their single currency at all costs, despite the most inhumane and counterproductive austerity. "
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They seem to forget that the vast majority of Greeks want to stay in the EU. I hope they can stay in the EU but I can't see how they can keep the Euro.
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"The EU plan dies.
that's not the problem, currencies come and go.
but Nato is here to stay and there's no way to exit, once you're in it's forever.
and Greece cannot join russia's custom union as long as she's a Nato member.
best scenario is Greece signing further new deals with russia for oil/gas pipelines, but that's it.
very lucrative, but not enough to feed the whole country with it.
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"The EU plan dies.
that's not the problem, currencies come and go.
but Nato is here to stay and there's no way to exit, once you're in it's forever.
and Greece cannot join russia's custom union as long as she's a Nato member.
best scenario is Greece signing further new deals with russia for oil/gas pipelines, but that's it.
very lucrative, but not enough to feed the whole country with it.
France left NATO for something like 40 years. It can be done. It would give Greece less say in the defense of Europe, but it could do it.
On the topic, it seems to me that the whole experiment of a joint currency was a bad idea from the start. How can a nation and people have sovereignty over an economy without being able to control the nation's currency? It's just not possible. At the same time, I don't understand how Greeks can expect to receive a loan without making the systemic changes to pay it back. Do they really want a loan or just a gift of money from other nations? Even if it were a gift without systemic changes, it would only be a matter of time before the Greeks stood at the EU street corner with their hands out again.
The only solution is for the Greeks to stand alone with their own currency so that they can live with their choices.
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The guardian and CNN have a lively discussions and comments with people from all over the world.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/06/news/economy/greece-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/06/news/economy/greece-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/index.html)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/06/greek-referendum-eu-leaders-call-crisis-meeting-as-bailout-rejected-live-updates#comments (http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/06/greek-referendum-eu-leaders-call-crisis-meeting-as-bailout-rejected-live-updates#comments)
so have others,
LeMonde or the New York Times.
The wallstreetjournal has an interesting theory that V was sacked because he revealed too much of Syrizas transition plans.After all they have been campaigning that the referendum is not about the euro, the banks would open again tuesday and that they would have a deal in 48 hours....etc...
But in an interview with the Telegraph sunday evening V revealed they had already been discussing IOUīs like California as a transition currency. This would mean a first step towards the drachme, without announcing their plans to the people who want to keep the euro. And of course they can blame it all on the horrible terrorist Europeans who wonīt let them continue take money without guarantees.
http://www.chaniapost.eu/2015/07/06/was-it-the-daily-telegraphs-report-that-led-to-varoufakis-resignation/ (http://www.chaniapost.eu/2015/07/06/was-it-the-daily-telegraphs-report-that-led-to-varoufakis-resignation/)
Anyway, we will never know what really happened. He got his fame and stardom and is off to happy future and lots of money for his talks and books. Whatever happens now, he is no longer connected to it. But after such a resounding No victory, it is strange that Tsirpas would kick him out to please the criminal creditors. More likely they did it for internal reasons.
Maybe Greece will now choose a finance minister who has a track record of being a successful negotiator who can achieve results. But of course that is only possible if they want to stay in the euro which is very unlikely.
However, they could have brought in a professional many months ago and finished up with a deal long before the deadline.
And of course the banks will be closed for a while. But who needs banks to party?
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Look,noone can and will pay for it's debt never, never ever.
Tell me, which country in the eurozone is not paying their tranches, other than Greece.
Our former prime minister Jose Socrates (2005-2011), who loved to create new constructions projects everywhere in Portugal, said he learned that a country debt was not to repay, but to manage. In 2011, his finance minister called for troija behind Socrates back because this one was in constant denial and didn't want to assume the debt was out of control. He managed badly the debt. He didn't care at all.
Now he is in prison, suspected of passive corruption.
We are here to discuss opinions, you don't need to accuse me of ignorance or anything, just because my ideas doesn't match yours.
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In the present times, money is debt and debt is money.
Money is printed out of thin air for loans but the catch is that the interest is not printed.
For the cycle to continue new loans must create new money to cover the past loans' interests.
The economic cycles produced by periods of loan restrictions are there just to cash out getting what really matters on the hands of the creditors. Resources, infrastructures, anything that is not fake money printed out of thin air.
In the long run, the world can't pay all loans and be at 0 debt, never. Maybe the world can pay all the debt or maybe pay all the interests on that debt but paying both is not an option. It's mathematically impossible because the money to pay the debt + interest does not exist.
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How can a nation and people have sovereignty over an economy without being able to control the nation's currency? It's just not possible. At the same time, I don't understand how Greeks can expect to receive a loan without making the systemic changes to pay it back.
the whole EU idea is an offspring of the Cold War, a thing of the past that makes little sense nowadays in 2015.
joining the EU means becoming de facto a "region" and losing the status of sovereign country, just as every state in the USA begging for money to the FED.
i wouldn't blame us too much as many of us never ever have been allowed to vote for all this.
however, neither most of the greeks ever gave support to the crooks of PASOK who's responsible for the sh-itload of loans that now greece refused to pay.
while the germans are busy pointing their fingers at Syriza the old greek elite is laughing all the way to the bank while living overseas with billions of euros stored safely in switzerland.
now, don't ask me how they could possibly get all that money and why their creditors saw nothing wrong with it, i can guess why but ultimately it's not my business, but as always it will be the innocent law-abiding people paying the price for this mess, for starters losing their jobs and secondly losing probably most of their remaining bank account.
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The next few days will hopefully see a sensible end to the crisis. I still believe having the drachme back will give Greece much better options.
It is also hard to get rid of the images of people celebrating and dancing while the European flag is burned. That picture will stay with me for a long time.
Being part of the eurozone means, you are part of a team. Why not give Portugal a 53% debt relief this time? It doesnīt have to be Greece every three years.
Many of the smaller and poorer countries will not accept to pay the Greek debt for them. All 18 eurozone countries have to agree and let their parliaments vote. I donīt see how Greece will get 18 yes votes after voting No so loudly themselves.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/ecbs-ilmars-rimsevics-says-greece-has-voted-itself-out-of-euro-zone/articleshow/47974692.cms (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/ecbs-ilmars-rimsevics-says-greece-has-voted-itself-out-of-euro-zone/articleshow/47974692.cms)
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/eurozones-poorer-nations-take-hard-line-on-greece/articleshow/47964280.cms (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/eurozones-poorer-nations-take-hard-line-on-greece/articleshow/47964280.cms)
They can still be part of Schengen, travel and work wherever they want. But if they want full control over how to run their finances without evil outside interference, then it would probably be better to go their own way.
The many young greek people who work abroad will have an easier time sending money home, because sending euros or dollars will be so much more valuable.
And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
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And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
For that they need to leave the EU, not the Eurozone
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Maybe, I am not sure which part of the membership of euro or eu require how much financial comittment.
But probably leaving it alltogether would be best. They can still negotiate free trade and free travel agreements.
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The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!
I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.
Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!
Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!
My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.
You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!
Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politcs for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.
They play referendum games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within,
because it's always somebody else's fault.
That's politics, indeed. And this has nothing to do with a healthy triving economy. These irresponsible politics are the root cause of all bubbles and crisis. And todays Greece is the perfect example.
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Yes apparently everything is pretty clear in your mind.
Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.Physical laws is all the economy is,but the politicians came and ruined this simple cause/effect balance sciense perfect system thingy.
You can live and thrive in this existensial crisis (funny that you are the theologist here and you are totally oblivious),and i hope the best to you.
Just bear in mind that one day you might wake up and open a book (which i find unlikely) and realize that the market that you are evangelizing
as being diluted by leftists and communists is the best you are going to get because if im not mistaken the western world is being ruled by liberals during the last 40 years with the same
ideas as you.
40 years these poor men had to implement their ideas and they get sabotaged all the time by socialists and leftists thats why this model isnt working to its full potential.
And Greece is the last communistic/capitalistic country i suppose and tsipras has put a veto to its reforms so that we will never join the rest of the western world and insted bring you all down with us?
Seriously what else am i going to witness in this thread as undisputed truth....
You got that right: the government intervention in the economy and the wrong political decisions (=bad management) are the root cause of all bubbles and crises!
From borrowing too much money to pay huge armies of civil servants, to money printing (when borrowing doesn't work anymore) or subsidising inefficient industries, only to buy votes for future elections.
Remember that no government knows better than people, what is good for people.
And BTW, economics is a science, even if you don't believe it, even if it is based on a lot of empirical data. Apart from mathematics, all other sciences (eg physics, chemistry, etc) are based on empirical data or try to develop models able to explain the empirical data.
Now back to Greece.
Syriza is called anti-austerity party. This label hides the real ideological nature of this party.
These 6 months since Tsipras took over, have not changed a bit the young radical left militant, who adhered to the communist party when he was 16. Tsipras lives only for "The Cause".
Greece has become an European Venezuela, but without the power of the venezuelan oil. Syriza is a big admirer of the anti-capitalist agenda pushed by Hugo Chavez. Not surprising, both Maduro and Castro sent their congratulations: "We are about to break the chains of the international finances and IMF"
When dealing with Tsipras and Varoufakis, EU made a big mistake. The same mistake they make when talking to Putin.
They talk to them like they talk to normal, responsible people, ready to defend their priorities, but with no hidden agenda. They expect that when someone makes a promise, the promise is kept. Nobody expect lies told with a straight face, like those told by Putin when he denied the presence of the russian army in eastern Ukraine.
What EU often forgets is that the greek government is made out of communists and radical leftists, with marxist beliefs, who have attended the leninist school of thought. The capitalist EU (even the democratic left) are their arch-enemies, therefore they feel it is alright to blackmail and deceive with no scrupuls. No surprise here about those frequent contacts between Tsipras and Putin, because these contacts serve "The Cause"
All means are good to serve "The Cause", especially those means exploiting EU weaknesses. Respecting EU rules is the last thing Tsipras has in mind. What he wants is to bend those rules and use them for his own agenda.
Last Sunday referendum is the perfect example for such rules manipulation. Even if the Greek constitution forbids (for very logical reasons) a referendum on fiscal matters, Syriza found a way around it.
Tsipras did a great job in exploiting a certain ideological blindness which ignores the reality, by manipulating frustrations, fears, bursts of national pride, focusing them on the usual suspects: Schauble, Merkel, IMF.
This looks exactly like the good old communist "class warfare"!
Tsipras and Varoufakis became heroes by promoting a parallel reality, while destroying all the progress made, with huge sacrifices, by the greeks under the previous government (without even taking in account the recent disaster created by the bank closures)
Syriza has now all it needs to implement a semi-authoritarian neo-Chavist regime.
I just read that some canadian mining company had its license revoked and the workers took over the mine. In a discussion with that union leader, the energy minister stated that the european money will never be returned.
This de-facto nationalization is inline with Syriza's mission to fight against the neo-liberalism and the capitalism itself.
Syriza is trying now to re-invent the "communist wheel". As history has proven over and over again, these attempts have always failed!
But who knows, maybe Syriza found a way!
Therefore "Good luck" to all of you, Syriza cheerleaders and supporters, in implementing the "Brave New World" or the next 21st century utopia!
"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
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Now they asked an urgent loan of 7 billions euros for the next 48 hours to the "terrorists".
7 billions! :o
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OMG, you mean this story from the telegraph? I had heard about it loosely but completely forgotten about it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11717890/Could-Greece-become-the-European-Venezuela.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11717890/Could-Greece-become-the-European-Venezuela.html)
Greece as the next Venezuela without Oil.
It is clear that Tsirpas has hidden agendas, he lies openly towards his people in a very shameful way. No sense of guilt for ruining the country in just 6 months, but as we have seen last Sunday, people seem to be having fun.
We donīt have to understand it, if they want to try communism again in the 21st century, it is their choice.
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"Syriza are not competent economically. Lafanzanis told me that they are going to f*** the Europeans and never pay them back."
They dont even consider themselves to be Europeans. Cant wait for them to leave. Good riddance.
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And the Greek people can run their country the way they want, nobody outside will get upset if they seem them favoring the oligarchs from paying taxes or wasting their money on the military. It is their country, they can do whatever they want.
For that they need to leave the EU, not the Eurozone
We have no problem favouring oligarchs with Non-dom status so they pay almost no tax in the UK and wasting money on the militarry while still being in the EU :)
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Greece cannot "fail", it's a Nato member, if it fails Nato will take care somehow, they've no interest in leaving Nato members pis-s poor, especially now that the Russians are willing to bail them out.
sure, they can leave the EU but in one way or another they'll be forced to obey to foreign powers, or else ...
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...sorry, accidental quote instead of modify.
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So all 28 leaders of Europe are meeting on Sunday. We all know what that means.
There will be humanitarian aid of course. Generous aid. But at least that money will actually reach the people.
Bitter. But there is no point to repeat the same mistake again and again.
And once the transition is over,Greece can maybe find their own path in their own unique way.
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All the countries governor worried, Tsipras is the only one laughing.
Looking at this picture seems like it is all good with his country, he doesn't care with the worries he is causing to other countries.
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And once the transition is over,Greece can maybe find their own path in their own unique way.
The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.
Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.
What Europe needs is an organization that creates alliances, simplifies relations between nations, that suggests paths and coordinated efforts for the common success. That helps to find ways for each country to be flexible and competitive but still keep room for each nation's creative a personal approach to solve the problems. Everything the EU is NOT!
So, if Greece actual manages to find their own path, believe me that they will be a lot happier than many other nations that just want to join the "popular rich kids" club, thinking that they will be successful just by being near them and imitating their manners in an artificial manner.
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Smells like grexit. MUTTI looks not amused tonight.
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This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.
That's what happened to the U.S. We were supposed to have a de-centralized government where people in individual sovereign states would have greater controls over their own destinies, but now we're dictated to by a corrupt central authority of leftists that are destroying our country financially and culturally.
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This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind. It's blindly creating normalized rules and general impositions based on a couple of countries values, to others with totally different "personalities" and social and economic conditions, steamrolling everything that doesn't fit these few countries view of the world.
That's what happened to the U.S. We were supposed to have a de-centralized government where people in individual sovereign states would have greater controls over their own destinies, but now we're dictated to by a corrupt central authority of leftists that are destroying our country financially and culturally.
Except that the congress is fully controlled by the republicans.
What Americans don't realize when they call Obama "leftist", is that, in fact, he is to the right of what Europe calls "right". He is a "leftist" only when compared to the republicans. And that's far, very, very, 3 times very far from Syriza!
EU and US are worlds apart. Culturally and politically
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In Greek mythology Europa (/jʊˈroʊpə, jə-/; Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē; Doric Greek: Εὐρώπα Eurṓpā) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage,for whom the continent Europe was named.
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EU and US are worlds apart. Culturally and politically
but there's nothing wrong if they're so different, to each his own.
the US started as a colony, as virgin lands, of course it took a radically different path.
europe is overpopulated, no big reserves of natural gas and oil, dependent on foreign powers, run by eurocrats and crooks, devastated by 3000 yrs of wars, the outcome we can see today is the sum of its long history and i don't think it's easy for the average american to understand all the little things that make europe so special and unique, you should live here for a few years and travel a bit more.
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Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.
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The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.
Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind.
yes and yes !
the EU is killing our core identity and our soul.
europe has NEVER been united into a monolithic bloc in the last 3000 yrs and for very good reasons.
what we're witnessing now is a horrible social engineering experiment on our skin and of course it's miserably failing.
you just can't turn greece or poland into germany or viceversa, no matter what the eurocrats smoked, it's just not that easy to turn us into a bunch of zombies and drones.
the only way to make permanent changes is to give real benefits, not to make our life worse than before.
an alliance of small states can only work if everyone has something to gain, now instead everyone is losing and told to shut the F up.
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The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.
Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind.
yes and yes !
the EU is killing our core identity and our soul.
europe has NEVER been united into a monolithic bloc in the last 3000 yrs and for very good reasons.
what we're witnessing now is a horrible social engineering experiment on our skin and of course it's miserably failing.
you just can't turn greece or poland into germany or viceversa, no matter what the eurocrats smoked, it's just not that easy to turn us into a bunch of zombies and drones.
the only way to make permanent changes is to give real benefits, not to make our life worse than before.
an alliance of small states can only work if everyone has something to gain, now instead everyone is losing and told to shut the F up.
Sorry, but that is just too funny. The EU is not trying to turn any country into Germany. It tries or wants to make things better and easier
http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html (http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html)
Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro)
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Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.
well i remember europe in the 70s and 80s when i was young and if you ask me the only big difference was that imported products were expensive and this stimulated the local economy to produce local alternatives (or lame imitations).
now it's all gone, i can buy german cars for just a little more than local brands, same for germanc/czech beers that were also hard to find before, what about french cheese or scottish whiskey, russian vodka, electronics, and pretty much anything made in europe or abroad.
this killed many local industries and caused unemployment but hey for us consumers it's very good to have choice and cheap prices.
moreover, i can easily decide to study in a foreign university or working in a foreign company, no big deal, just a little red tape ad you're done, before it was a mess and there was no internet to quickly communicate and getting things done.
a trip in eastern europe was like a trip in the wild west .. something adventurous and a bit risky too ... spain and greece were just cheap holiday destinations, places like russia were totally off the radar and very hard to get in even for tour groups, airplanes were expensive, no ryanair and no online bookings hahaha ..
in many ways, you were basically "trapped" in your little sh-itty country.
it sounds like another world but to me it seems yesterday ... i'm afraid the young people cannot understand and they cannot appreciate how much better it is now.
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Its very easy to focus on the negatives. Ignoring the benefits it brought us doesnt mean they are not there.
I have experienced first hand the benefits of the EU, and many of my friends too. For me it made my life so much easier.
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Sorry, but that is just too funny. The EU is not trying to turn any country into Germany. It tries or wants to make things better and easier
[url]http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html[/url] ([url]http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html[/url])
Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro[/url])
as anyone else living in the EU i had many benefits from it, i don't deny there are benefits, but soon the cons will outweights the pros if the trend keeps going on.
of course they had to give us benefits or no one would have joined in the first place.
but once the process is complete they will get back to business and there's no way out, see greece and whoever is next on their agenda.
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Greece lied about their deficit. It had to be less than 3.5% to join the Euro, in reality it was 13.6%. Dont mix things up.
A Greece default benefits no one. They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.
If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.
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Its very easy to focus on the negatives. Ignoring the benefits it brought us doesnt mean they are not there.
I have experienced first hand the benefits of the EU, and many of my friends too. For me it made my life so much easier.
for me too.
i lived and worked in a few EU countries and it was quite easy to move around and to get my papers in order, just a few decades ago it would have been a lot harder if not impossible.
said that, all these things could be done without turning europe into a banking union run by an unelected elite of eurocrats, the kind of democracy we have now is light years behind real democracies like Switzerland for instance.
and most importantly, why there's still no sign of a unified european military force ? a EU Army or whatever resembling a proper fighting force big enough to represent the defence of a 500 million people union ?
as it is now we must be scared even from russia which is a country with just 150 million people, this is ridiculous and we're always seen as minor power and as america's dog, nobody is ever scared of our foreign politics, even lybia or sirya .. the russian could take over the whole continent in a few weeks and many of us would even welcome them with open arms, that would finally settle the matter for the next 1000 yrs hahaha .... a unified eurasia from portugal to vladivostock, one currency, no borders.
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The Eu and especially the euro made a huge difference to our business, we both exported and imported much more easily. The whole euro zone became our market and we started working with many new suppliers from other countries that we didnīt consider before, because we didnīt want to always be dependent on the various exchange rates.
I donīt see any other country other than Greece interested in leaving the euro or attacking all of Europe so aggressively.
But Tsirpas has been lying to his own people in just a horrible way. He knew that if he had asked a referendum about euro or drachme the Greeks would have voted for the euro.
He had enough time to pass new laws or measure to clean up the country, tax the rich, cut spending on the military. He didnīt do a single thing. Instead everybody just got a permanent media show of him and V.
He is so happy and relaxed, because the meeting in Brussels and the threat of Grexit donīt worry him at all. They must have been planning to leave for a long time, probably thought he can squeeze some last minute pity money out of europe if the show he orchestrates is good enough and of course no intention to pay anything back to anyone. He doesnīt care about how the other countries manage or what sacrificies they make to pay towards Greece.
No sense of responsibility towards the Greek people whatsoever, just clinging to power by making people desperate.
The show will continue until Sunday, then he can keep blaming Europe for all that follows, while his party dig their roots even deeper into the state. The state will soon take over key business, probably starting with the media companies that are not publishing what Syriza wants them to hear.
In the end they will get voted out again, unless he can prevent new elections due to the "national crisis" and maybe hand himself some shiny new "special rights".
I am not worried about Russia getting involved or this becoming a dangerous threat to anyone else.
This will be an entirely local Greek issue and until they decide to really change their country into a proper state with functioning tax collection, a functioning legal system, encouraging young people to start a business and opening up internally to allow those who work hard to flourish, nothing will improve.
In 2010 Germany couldnīt collect 2.3% of their taxes, in Greece it was 89%. That number is being floated on many message boards and I donīt see any contradictions.
A country cannot run on other peopleīs money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they donīt do it, nobody else will.
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They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.
If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.
they just agreed to print a few billions of paper money, we're not talking about tangible goods like gold or whatever.
nowhere i said the EU is hellbent on destroying our lives, but their master plan is obviously about creating a burocratic monster and a police state.
i may have a bleak vision of the situation because for the last 10 yrs i lived in non-EU countries where you can still enjoy many freedoms that are a thing of the past in europe.
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Its very easy to focus on the negatives. Ignoring the benefits it brought us doesnt mean they are not there.
I have experienced first hand the benefits of the EU, and many of my friends too. For me it made my life so much easier.
for me too.
i lived and worked in a few EU countries and it was quite easy to move around and to get my papers in order, just a few decades ago it would have been a lot harder if not impossible.
said that, all these things could be done without turning europe into a banking union run by an unelected elite of eurocrats, the kind of democracy we have now is light years behind real democracies like Switzerland for instance.
and most importantly, why there's still no sign of a unified european military force ? a EU Army or whatever resembling a proper fighting force big enough to represent the defence of a 500 million people union ?
as it is now we must be scared even from russia which is a country with just 150 million people, this is ridiculous and we're always seen as minor power and as america's dog, nobody is ever scared of our foreign politics, even lybia or sirya .. the russian could take over the whole continent in a few weeks and many of us would even welcome them with open arms, that would finally settle the matter for the next 1000 yrs hahaha .... a unified eurasia from portugal to vladivostock, one currency, no borders.
Sorry, but there should be no armies at all.
Do we really need to spend money so we can flex some muscles? I thought we were supposed to focus on peace rather than war. I despise the Russians for what they do, so lets not be like them.
We should be like Costa Rica if anything.
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They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.
If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.
they just agreed to print a few billions of paper money, we're not talking about tangible goods like gold or whatever.
nowhere i said the EU is hellbent on destroying our lives, but their master plan is obviously about creating a burocratic monster and a police state.
i may have a bleak vision of the situation because for the last 10 yrs i lived in non-EU countries where you can still enjoy many freedoms that are a thing of the past in europe.
We just discussed the extra freedoms we have in EU, and now they are a thing of the past. I feel more free and safe than ever in the EU.
What are the freedoms you enjoy elsewhere you cant enjoy in the EU?
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I despise the fascism for what they do, so lets not be like them.
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In 2010 Germany couldnīt collect 2.3% of their taxes, in Greece it was 89%. That number is being floated on many message boards and I donīt see any contradictions.
A country cannot run on other peopleīs money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they donīt do it, nobody else will.
this is the fruit of american and NATO intervention in the 70s and now the sh-it finally hits the fan.
the reason greece could afford such an easy life is because Nato guaranteed protection and because they're members of this club they won't be allowed to fail ... they lost their sovereignity but in exchange now they're on our shoulder and they will squeeze the lemon till the last drop.
they should both leave the EU and Nato, so the hot potato will be dealt by russia and good luck with that .. russia had endless troubles too with tiny sh-itty republics in the past, that's why they had to implement such draconian laws to keep things in order, and i've seen similar things in china by the way.
there's just no way to easily administer a big federation or a big country, each local sh-itlord will try to eat a bigger slice of the pie and corruption always skyrockets to the point that nothing ever works.
we can blame greece as much as we like but in the end all this mess is the predictable outcome of the myopic Nato plans during the cold war.
give them an inch and they'll take a mile ...
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Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.
I'm not saying that there wasn't benefits in terms of circulation of people and goods, but those same things could have been accomplished with a looser union. In fact the use on the term UNION says it all. Why couldn't it be an Alliance? No, it has to be a union because it's the very nature of the countries independence that's being put in question.
The EU has got to the point where even the use of wooden spoons in the kitchen's have been regulated! The type of olive oil or vinegar containers in the restaurants and many, many more minuscule and irrelevant things!
Including things that mess with the cuisine of countries. For example, the traditional portuguese dried cod is no longer allowed to be dried in the salt and sun, it has to use chemicals to dehydrate it! HOORAY for Bayer, or whatever company will produce them , and for cancer too! The period some meat must rest is no longer allowed and must be used soon after the kill.
We're one step away for the EU to regulate the color of underwear the people must wear in each day of the week!
We must also differentiate what benefits are coming exactly from the EU, and not simply because of the advance of times that would happen no matter what.
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Lots of the strange EU regulations that we see in the press are made up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth#Source_of_Euromyths
The ones that are real are often ignored by sensible countries but for some reason the UK implements them. I think that's more a problem with our government than the EU, they like to blame everything on the EU. And even when a daft rule is implemented, there's usually a way around it. Traditional light bulbs were banned by the EU but I can still buy them now, shops got around that stupid law that our government failed to block.
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Sorry, but there should be no armies at all.
Do we really need to spend money so we can flex some muscles? I thought we were supposed to focus on peace rather than war. I despise the Russians for what they do, so lets not be like them.
We should be like Costa Rica if anything.
impossible.
a country cannot be kept together without a national army and this is even more true for europe.
without an army and a police force a government has no power at all, it would be just a bunch of guys talking about politics.
moreover, the EU is a major manufacturer of military equipment so it's an industry that can only grow bigger and bigger.
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I feel more free and safe than ever in the EU.
What are the freedoms you enjoy elsewhere you cant enjoy in the EU?
not being spied by the NSA and GCHQ for instance, being allowed to buy a SIM card without showing my ID, smoking in bars, smoking weed on the beach, unregulated nightlife, cheap booze, sleazyness, and the list goes on.
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They pumped billions into Greece and probably never get it back.
If you think the EU is out to destroy peoples lives, you have bleak outlook on life my friend.
they just agreed to print a few billions of paper money, we're not talking about tangible goods like gold or whatever.
That "paper money" is being backed by people all over Europe including all the countries who are much poorer than Greece.
It is real money from real people. Countries like Finland have invested 10% of their national budget into Greece. they did it believing that Greece was serious about being part of Europe and of course would want to pay it back.
In many ways the Europeans were naive, they believed because so much of European history revolves around Greece, that modern day Greece is a normal European country. Unfortunately it isnīt.
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Including things that mess with the cuisine of countries. For example, the traditional portuguese dried cod is no longer allowed to be dried in the salt and sun, it has to use chemicals to dehydrate it! HOORAY for Bayer, or whatever company will produce them , and for cancer too!
yeah, and i recently read about the EU willing to impose the use a xxx % amount of powder milk to make cheese, this is crazy.
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Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.
Well, very few countries perform referendums about European decisions. I certainly have never been asked!
And you underestimate the power of coercion the bigger countries have over the smaller ones. Regarding the EU and Euro we're still too close to it to get the whole picture. The future will reveal what has really happened.
I can pin-point three examples in the history where a "bully" country lead to the situation Portugal is today. Three moments that directly turned Portugal from a world power to an insignificant country and the current situation we live.
18th century - At the start of the industrialization Portugal was threatened by the UK that if we didn't stop the development of the industry they would stop the import of portuguese Port Wine and other products. Portugal had to obey since that would provoke a catastrophe in the Portuguese economy has UK was the largest trade partner. At the time it wasn't easy to find new partners as it is today because of travel and communications.
19th century - Portugal is by now a weakened nation and UK threatened Portugal (1890) to give up the territories between Angola and Mozambique in Africa so that the UK could connect by railway the colony of South Africa with the ones in the north. This lead to a very deep crisis of the monarchy and a prelude to a revolution.
20th century - After the Republican revolution that threw Portugal into chaos in 1910, again UK threatened Portugal that we should participate in WWI or they would invade the African Portuguese colonies. Portugal obeyed, and turned a situation very much like we live today into a nightmare due to the costs of the war effort. This chaos and crisis lead to the 1926 fascist dictatorship which turned Portugal very much like a 3rd world country.
So, stating that countries are free in their decisions is in most cases far from the truth. Portugal has been several times menaced during this EU experiment, including to suffer penalties for doing the exact same things France and Germany did.
I'm not excusing all the errors of the Portuguese, but smaller countries are always bullied by powerful countries and rarelly have total freedom of choice.
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That "paper money" is being backed by people all over Europe including all the countries who are much poorer than Greece.
It is real money from real people. Countries like Finland have invested 10% of their national budget into Greece. they did it believing that Greece was serious about being part of Europe and of course would want to pay it back.
In many ways the Europeans were naive, they believed because so much of European history revolves around Greece, that modern day Greece is a normal European country. Unfortunately it isnīt.
look, the EU printed what .. 5-600 billions of euros a few years ago in order to save the banks ?
same will be done now to save greece and find a way to save their face too, of course the euro as a currency will suffer for a while but it will also recoup before or later.
the Ruble lost 30% after the sanctions last year, now it's doing fine.
the Euro was 1.36 against the US dollar, now it's 1.10, and we're still alive.
greece is just a small fry and all this mess has blown out of proportion.
it would the end of the EU if a big country like italy or spain was going down the drain, so we would be talking about 2-3000 billions of euros instead of a few hundreds.
moreover, everyone is talking like germany could never go down while in fact even France is going down now and germany is not in such a good shape as portrayed by the medias, i mean the only places in europe where the economy is great are probably luxembourg and Monaco ...
even in the UK they're cutting the welfare to the bone now as they realized the party is over and there's no more juice to be squeezed to feed the millions who got free housing and monthly cheques to do Fk all.
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error - quote instead of modify
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Sorry, but there should be no armies at all.
Do we really need to spend money so we can flex some muscles? I thought we were supposed to focus on peace rather than war. I despise the Russians for what they do, so lets not be like them.
We should be like Costa Rica if anything.
impossible.
a country cannot be kept together without a national army and this is even more true for europe.
without an army and a police force a government has no power at all, it would be just a bunch of guys talking about politics.
moreover, the EU is a major manufacturer of military equipment so it's an industry that can only grow bigger and bigger.
Like I said, Costa Rica did it and they seem to thrive.
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Like I said before, Europe (EU) has a lot of good things to offer and they made things better, easier and cheaper. There are also some negatives, of course. But lets not pretend that everything was better before the EU. It wasnt.
I'm not saying that there wasn't benefits in terms of circulation of people and goods, but those same things could have been accomplished with a looser union. In fact the use on the term UNION says it all. Why couldn't it be an Alliance? No, it has to be a union because it's the very nature of the countries independence that's being put in question.
The EU has got to the point where even the use of wooden spoons in the kitchen's have been regulated! The type of olive oil or vinegar containers in the restaurants and many, many more minuscule and irrelevant things!
Including things that mess with the cuisine of countries. For example, the traditional portuguese dried cod is no longer allowed to be dried in the salt and sun, it has to use chemicals to dehydrate it! HOORAY for Bayer, or whatever company will produce them , and for cancer too! The period some meat must rest is no longer allowed and must be used soon after the kill.
We're one step away for the EU to regulate the color of underwear the people must wear in each day of the week!
We must also differentiate what benefits are coming exactly from the EU, and not simply because of the advance of times that would happen no matter what.
Sharpshot is right, there s a lot of stuff attributed to the EU when in fact its just a myth, a misunderstanding or down right incorrect information
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32013R1068 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32013R1068)
As I understand it, using salt and sun is still allowed, they only asked for permission to use different kinds of salt or chemicals. These chemical had to be regulated so that it doesnt cause any harm to health.
This is how the EU gets a bad reputation.
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The EU cuts down freedom on all sides.
The good side is that you can have a "ordered" life without any security issues, hunger and existencial problems apart from the malfunctioning healthcare in many EU countries. However, it is not a free country/zone anymore, not even sure about its democratic status, and its inhabitants are largely influenced by a media which is not independent anymore. It is just a matter of time until it falls apart.
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The EU cuts down freedom on all sides.
The good side is that you can have a "ordered" life without any security issues, hunger and existencial problems apart from the malfunctioning healthcare in many EU countries. However, it is not a free country/zone anymore, not even sure about its democratic status, and its inhabitants are largely influenced by a media which is not independent anymore. It is just a matter of time until it falls apart.
As opposed to all the other countries on the Globe where people can live in perfect freedom, their media is not biased and health care is perfect....
I love Europe. I love living here, this is a great place and Europeans have a very strong community bond.
But if you live in a community, you need rules.
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I am watching the discussions in the European parliament. Tsirpas gave a really bad performance. The other Greek delegates werenīt better. They come across as arrogant, no sense of solidarity with the rest of Europe, no thank you to all the small countries that have sent them money, they donīt seem to care that nobody trusts them. They even decorated all their tables with little oxi signs. Why are they surprised if Europe say no in response?
Syriza stopped all reforms, keeps talking about the terrorism of having to live within your means and keeps asking for billions of more money. "One day there will be reforms"...after they receive billions more...no comittment to cut spending on the military, taxing the church or the rich. Just more hot air.
No, itīs over. They are not ready to do what is necessary and expect all the smaller and poorer countries to pay for them.
Even the head of a large Russian bank said today they wonīt help Greece with money.
When they have the Drachme back, they can play with their own currency any way they like.
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The EU cuts down freedom on all sides.
The good side is that you can have a "ordered" life without any security issues, hunger and existencial problems apart from the malfunctioning healthcare in many EU countries. However, it is not a free country/zone anymore, not even sure about its democratic status, and its inhabitants are largely influenced by a media which is not independent anymore. It is just a matter of time until it falls apart.
As opposed to all the other countries on the Globe where people can live in perfect freedom, their media is not biased and health care is perfect....
I love Europe. I love living here, this is a great place and Europeans have a very strong community bond.
Please don`t feel offended. I think its great if you love to live in the place where you are, no matter the circumstances.
I always try to be objective, therefore I mentioned many positive aspects within the EU. Outside the EU there are many countries worse and many countries with higher quality. But it depends as well on your POV. In Germany e.g., People seem to be mostly focused on rational and economic aspects and equal those with satisfaction.
However, I do not think that "rules" which constrict freedom to such an extend are really necessary to maintain a society. Especially in Germany many of the so called "Grundrechte" got violated, bent over and restricted by the EU (Briefgeheimniss, Bankgeheimniss, Selbstbestimmung des Volkes, etc.).
Neither do I think it is helpful to constantly insult the "rest of the world" as less developed or call the Greek people lazy and cheating (was not you, cobalt). Both arguments show a limited understanding or will to understand the subject.
Freedom is not for everyone. Neither is a life lived in preconfigured but comfortable routes.
BTW: German media is one of the most censored and influenced at the time. It was not like that 5 years ago, although I do not always follow and my german sucks lol
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They even decorated all their tables with little oxi signs.
Did they do that?? For real, what are these guys on. Dont bite the hand that feeds you comes to mind.
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@tror
I have no problem with your opinion, sorry if it came across that way.
I just wonder which other part of the world offers a so much better balance of freedom and personal safety as Europe.
the US has more individual freedom, but a lot less safety from my persepective. every crazy person can get a gun easily and the violence level seems to me like some parts of the country are in local civil wars. Their politics are completely dividided, many politicians follow bizzarre religious extremists ideas. Many want to cut womenīs rights over abortion and personal health.
Is China a better place? or India? I mean looking at areas with many people living under the same law.
Some small countries might have better solutions and balance than Europe, but I think if you look at areas where hundreds of millions of people live, Europe is a pretty good place overall.
Obviously a lot of things could be improved,especially the buraucracy. Just look at the current drama over freedom of photography.
But there is basic safety, you do have existing legal processes, might take long and be full of paperwork, but you will get results and can run your business in peace. If you work hard, you will be successful.
Level of education is very high and thanks to the many different cultures under one umbrella, we have to practise tolerance all the time, need to learn other languages etc...
What is happening with Greece is very painful to watch. But after the No vote on Sunday and all the anti europe protests I keep reading and hearing about in interviews, my empathy is going down fast. So many people in Europe are struggling so much more than Greece. All they get is accusations and insults.
I hope Tsirpas has at least one final piece of integrity somewhere that he makes the Grexit as easy as possible, so he can get billions of dollars from the EU to make the transition easier. Everyone in Europe will have to help pay for the mistake of letting them in. But I doubt anyone expected Greece to be so stubbornly resistent to improving their country and living from their own work.
It is clear they have to do things their own way and with the Drachme, they can do whatever they want. They are still very lucky that Europe will help them with humanitairian assistance, but like I said last week, I doubt they will appreciate any of it. Just take it for granted and insult us while cashing in.
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Like I said, Costa Rica did it and they seem to thrive.
the case of tiny countries is a different scenario, it would be ineffective for them to invest in a military defence force, due to their size pretty much any neighbouring country will easily wipe them out even using antiquated armaments.
in europe we have similar cases, Andorra, Vatican, Liechtenstein, San Marino, etc .. also Iceland has basically just a police force, and greenland is also so isolated they don't need any defence force as far as i know (Denmark will take care, eventually).
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Everyone in Europe will have to help pay for the mistake of letting them in.
well, if greece was a mistake then what about Romania or Lithuania or ... ?
when i was young the EU was supposed to be a club for industrial and developed country, then suddenly there were talks of inglobating even Morocco or Moldova !
and everyone had a very hard time to understand how could these countries ever meet the minimum requirements to join the union, but the whole mainstream propaganda machine was hammering us day and night pushing for the Euro at all costs.
actually we were not afraid of that, but we were afraid of being flooded by millions of impoverished eastern europeans, which of course happened as expected and almost overnight.
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Tsirpas gave a really bad performance.
what else to expect, he's a former Communist youth and Syriza is the reincarnation of the greek communist party.
they took power out of the desperation of the greek people, either they vote for Syriza or for the neo-fascist Golden Dawn ... they've no other options as the Pasok and its political leftovers are responsible for throwing the country down the toilet.
as for the greek people, either they migrate or they scrap the very bottom of the barrel but it wouldn't be honest to blame them all for the Pasok's disasters, at least half of them never voted Pasok or never voted at all ... this kind of collective guilt makes no sense just as it's pointless to accuse the germans for the Nazi era or the russians for stalin or the chinese for Maoism.
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This is how the EU gets a bad reputation.
of course, because unscrupolous manifacturers will produce fake or imitations of traditional foods and due to these new EU laws it will be perfectly legal, just as it's the norm for imitations of french and italian cheese, olive oil, wine, liquors, and much more.
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they will run out of food in Greece
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Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro)
Actually no, we were all forced into this bad joke called the euro. Countries like Latvia and Lithuania joined as recently as 2014/2015 despite mass opposition from the people. Only Sweden and Denmark ever had a referendum on the issue, and the euro was rejected by both countries.
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Here is an overview of what is legally required to even get a third bailout started. And many parliaments are already in summer break. So first Greece has to persuade the heads of state and finance ministers that "this time" they will be really serious and do something...and then these have to convince their parliaments. In Finland and Estonia they will need an absolute majority. How likely is that?
The greek government has known this all the time, but decided to run away last minute and hold their "referendum" instead of making a deal.
I think Grexit is inevitable, I hope they have the sense to do it together with the EU instead of persuing their aggressive and hysterical attacks on the people who are ready to give them even more money.
the BRIC states just announced, that helping Greece is no option for them.
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Tsipras is treated like some kind of hero or Jesus...
https://www.facebook.com/ichbingrieche/videos/423895067795434/ (https://www.facebook.com/ichbingrieche/videos/423895067795434/)
:o
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They seem to adore him. Which would be fine if he would use his leadership skills to actually lead Greece out of the crisis. But him and V seem more interested in building their fanclubs instead of getting things done.
We donīt have to understand it. The people in Greece have to live with him.
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look at this video:
https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/videos/10153988726765016/ (https://www.facebook.com/GuyVerhofstadt/videos/10153988726765016/)
Belgian politician Guy Verhofstadt told some hard words to Tsipras.
I think in Europe they should not be afraid to speak what must be told, what they really think.
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I watched it live. Tsirpas didnīt look happy.
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At least Tsipras stood up to the banksters. Better than any Merkel, Hollande, Renzi and other useless idiots we currently have in the government. But yes he has no clue whatsoever, for starters he's a communist. When the "far right" aka common sense parties start taking seats in Europe, then we'll see some real progress.
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At least Tsipras stood up to the banksters. Better than any Merkel, Hollande, Renzi and other useless idiots we currently have in the government. But yes he has no clue whatsoever, for starters he's a communist. When the "far right" aka common sense parties start taking seats in Europe, then we'll see some real progress.
Ask your friend to lend you 100 euros and then tell him to feck off when he is asking it back. See how long that friendship lasts.
Keep calling the people who want to help you an idiot and soon there will be no one left to call idiots.
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The debt is unpayable. 275 billion for a country of 11 million people. That's 25k per person, including babies and retirees. Greece needs to default and start printing drachmas, something that should've been done 5 years ago. Today is Greece, tomorrow could/will be Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France.
The ECB is printing 1 trillion euros exclusively to the banks anyway, and nobody cares. Why the people should pay the price for idiotic deals between corrupt governments and sick eurocrats?
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Even if Greece defaults and start printing drachmas, if the country doesn't change what should be changed, sooner or later they will be in trouble again. And when the defense minister Panos Kammenos, came to the point to treathening Europe that if Europe don't help them, they would let jihadists passing through... (But then the europeans are the terrorists, right...) Well, the future is ugly anyway.
The big problem here is when a country governor and the population doesn't want to accept the necessity to implement changes. Perhaps because a majority wins directly or undirectly with the privileges, corruption, big public expenses. Certainly politicians included. It would have to be a really courageous politician to implement those kind of changes, he would be unpopular and Tsipras doesn't seems to be that guy.
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The debt is unpayable. 275 billion for a country of 11 million people. That's 25k per person, including babies and retirees. Greece needs to default and start printing drachmas, something that should've been done 5 years ago. Today is Greece, tomorrow could/will be Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France.
The ECB is printing 1 trillion euros exclusively to the banks anyway, and nobody cares. Why the people should pay the price for idiotic deals between corrupt governments and sick eurocrats?
The Greek debt is not 'unpayable'. Greece spends 45B on state pensions with a population of 11M. In contrast the UK (which is reasonably generous) spends 80B on state pensions with a population of 66M. Greece is spending over 3x more per person than the UK on pensions despite the cost of living in Greece being about half that of the UK.
If Greece were to reduce their spending on pensions to UK levels, relative to population size, then they could pay off their entire debt in about 10 years.
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Ask your friend to lend you 100 euros and then tell him to feck off when he is asking it back. See how long that friendship lasts.
that's not so easy.
Syriza was totally against the IMF loans years ago as they forecasted they could not be paid back and they would kill greece.
now they're in power and you expect them to play fair ? not gonna happen.
i mean nothing is going to happen in any case, as greece is a Nato member she's untouchable, even Obama this morning pressured the EU in order to not Fk with greece.
dont forget greece is nothing more than a US protectorate with american military bases in its territory, nobody can Fk with greece too much, and the EU won't be allowed to push it too far against american interests in the region.
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The ECB is printing 1 trillion euros exclusively to the banks anyway, and nobody cares. Why the people should pay the price for idiotic deals between corrupt governments and sick eurocrats?
because they accept being paid in Euros instead of Gold or other forms of currency.
a currency is valuable only as long as it's widely accepted in exchange for goods or labor.
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Even if Greece defaults and start printing drachmas, if the country doesn't change what should be changed, sooner or later they will be in trouble again.
No, because they would print tons of new drachmas, just as Japan is doing with the Yen since 1945 and same for the US with the Dollar, nobody even know how many dollars are in circulation, they could print a few trillios more and you wouldnt notice.
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The debt is unpayable. 275 billion for a country of 11 million people.
yes and so they will default, simple as that.
Varoufakis has been very clear about not giving a single euro back.
and guess what, today Tsipras asked for more billions in loans, it means he's not paying back anything, just doubling down and asking for more, when the money will be spent he will ask for even more, both parties know very well the game is rigged and it's a scam and a Ponzi.
there were warnings about banks doing all this already in the 19th century, it's nothing new and there's a vast literature about this topic.
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Meanwhile in Greece...
Increasingly concerned that greater economic trouble lies ahead of them, and limited in how much cash they can take out of banks, Greeks have been using their debit cards to buy ovens, refrigerators, dishwashers anything tangible that can hold its value in troubled times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/world/europe/greeks-spend-droves-afraid-losing-savings-bailout.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/world/europe/greeks-spend-droves-afraid-losing-savings-bailout.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0)
(there is no end to this thread)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5Yv7iwfhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH5Yv7iwfhs)
PS good to see you back gostwyck, thought we'd lost another one!
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anything tangible that can hold its value in troubled times.
the cost of living is not the issue.
the issue is the lack of jobs and there's no fix for that.
as much as now they hate germany many greeks will end up cleaning toilets in Berlin or Munich as that's where the jobs are.
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anything tangible that can hold its value in troubled times.
the cost of living is not the issue.
the issue is the lack of jobs and there's no fix for that.
as much as now they hate germany many greeks will end up cleaning toilets in Berlin or Munich as that's where the jobs are.
Actually there is.
For starters, the government must liberalize all those "closed" professions, from taxi drivers to notaries and hundreds of other. But unions don't like competition. And communist governments are in bed with unions.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Actually there is.
For starters, the government must liberalize all those "closed" professions, from taxi drivers to notaries and hundreds of other. But unions don't like competition. And communist governments are in bed with unions.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
sure, in the long term they will have to open up their internal market but it's too late, those who can have already left greece and all the others will soon have to choose between starvation or migration.
anyway, as i wrote already Obama is officially pushing the EU to cancel the entire greek's debt so as i forecasted greece will be bailed out by Nato even if it could end with a Grexit in one way or another.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-urges-germany-greece-to-compromise-on-emergency-financing-1436295484 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-urges-germany-greece-to-compromise-on-emergency-financing-1436295484)
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal)
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
... great speech... but - even more fascinating is Tsiprases expression - without emotion - charming man of steel...
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For all those who seriously believe the EU is actually trying to "help" Greece:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu)
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The question remains - why should countries that earn much less than Greece force their tax payers to send money to Greece, especially if greece is not doing what is necessary to improve their economy. everybody in Europe would far prefer to see greece booming and successful, maybe as a supercool IT country instead of just cheese, toursim and olives. They would become a net payer instead of a net taker from the eurozone. That would be much better for everyone.
But the drive to become that has to come from within.
And nobody is talking about throwing Greece out of Europe, they will always be there. The question is: isnīt the Drachme much better for them? The transition will cost everyone a lot of money,certainly not less than the third bailout, but at least then the proud greeks can run their finances the way they want.
If they stay with the euro, they have to play by the euro rules and they donīt seem to like to have any rules "imposed" on them.
There are enough countries in the EU without the Euro, so the Drachme is not a negative option if it is used wisely.
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For all those who seriously believe the EU is actually trying to "help" Greece:
[url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu[/url] ([url]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu[/url])
Right! This is a great analysis!
So, the alternative to a free market economy is a state controlled economy.
Because a state controlled economy is democratic and good for the people!
Right!
This is why life in a 100% state controlled East Germany was much better than in the West Germany controlled by their greedy capitalists brothers.
And this is why North Koreans, in a 100% state controlled economy, are so happy compared with their South Koreans brothers, ruled by Samsung and other ruthless corporations.
And this is why Eastern Europeans were so happily queuing for hours for a rationed loaf of bread, oil, sugar, etc, in their democratic 100% state controlled economies
We can see more and more the signs of this happiness in the country of Syriza.
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... Obama ordered Merkel to make an agreement with Greece... nato geostrategic interests.. .she will of course carry out an order - Germany is under occupation of America...
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The question remains - why should countries that earn much less than Greece force their tax payers to send money to Greece, especially if greece is not doing what is necessary to improve their economy.
You are missing the point. The media is usually simplifying the situation with phrases like "sending money to Greece to help them" and this statement is usually accompanied by the phrase like "while they do not want to do reforms or save".
This is a misconception, mal information and a insult to the greek people.
To make it short, let me quote Phillip Inman from "The Guardian":
The bailouts have been for the European financial sector, while passing the debt from being owed to the private sector to the public sector.
...and
Less than 10% of the bailout money was left to be used by the government for reforming its economy and safeguarding weaker members of society.
Read the details here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go)
78% of the "bailout" money goes directly to financial Institutions which hold old debt, piled it up with interests, forced Greece with the tool of the "Troika" to compensate those debts with their assets - which was basically and expropriation. They stripped all values from the country, left it with nothing, but continue to pile up debt for interests and then, due to their "system relevant status", threaten the EU community to pay for that debt.
Yes, you are right. Greece made debt in the beginning. Like any other country does in the EU. However, this debt is not extraordinarily high - look at the per capita column:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt)
The average Greek has less Debt than the average German counted by per Capita.
It just got bled out with the same mechanisms like south america by the north before.
(Interesting read in context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America))
In other words:
Imagine you are a carpenter. You have to go into debt - for whatever reason which might be stupid or not. The holder of the debt increases interests and gives you pressure. You go to your friends to ask for money. This money goes directly to the holder of the debt. But the interest is too high. The holder of the debt asks you that you have to give him all his tools (Troika). You have no choice. So you earn less. You have to ask for more to your friends. It is not enough since you earn less and now have to borrow more! The holder asks you to handle over your house....in the end, whatever you do is to the benefit of the financial institution. Not to you. If you refuse to hand over your house or your tools - and you know that this will ruin you - your are not "willing to do the neccesarry" and get called lazy and cheating by all your friends.
Greece lost healthcare, pensions, education,....all for that.
Yes, you are right. Greece will never be a economic power like e.g. Germany. They have another lifestyle. Things do not work out there like in a society which is focussed on a rational lifestyle. But who are we to judge? Does this give us the right to abuse debt as power? Does it give us the right to dictate their economy (through the Euro) and tell them how to live or otherwise drive them into bankruptcy? They had been alright before. I have grown up in a place like this (not greece) and know the mentality . If you would make me chose between the UK and a country like Greece I do not know which country provides more quality of life.
Furthermore: A crash and grexit is not nearly as bad as growing up a entire generation in hopelessness and make them leave the country. People get used to ahve no Job and no possibility. They won`t get out with 30. Germany is "more or less" alright right now, I recently visited it but most of the other EU countries are in a critical development.
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
excellent Farage, as always.
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The Eu and especially the euro made a huge difference to our business, we both exported and imported much more easily. The whole euro zone became our market and we started working with many new suppliers from other countries that we didnīt consider before, because we didnīt want to always be dependent on the various exchange rates.
I donīt see any other country other than Greece interested in leaving the euro or attacking all of Europe so aggressively.
A country cannot run on other peopleīs money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they donīt do it, nobody else will.
The EU's Dirty Secret: Germany Is The Biggest Welfare Recipient There Is
The standard way of thinking about the eurozone is this: Germany is strong, France is a bit less strong, and everyone else mooches off their strength.
Certainly that's how it's appeared lately, post-crisis, but that's thinking way too small.
Floyd Norris at NYT sheds some light on what's actually been the case, going back to the creation of the Euro: Germany is the biggest beneficiary around, and everyone else has been losers.
Basically, because periphery countries like Portugal and Greece and Spain are not able to devalue their currencies to a point where they have competitive labor forces, Germany is the huge winner.
Its trade balance has surged from being in a small deficit pre-Euro to a huge surplus post euro.
(http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4db1bd55ccd1d51105230000-564-259/chart.png)
Sans euro, Germany's neighbors would be far more competitive than they are now. Also, if we went back to each country having their own currencies, the Deutsche Mark would surge beyond where the euro is now, making Germany even less competitive as BMWs became less affordable for everyone else.
The workers of Spain, Italy, France and everyone else are crippled to benefit the Germans, and its insistence on a strong Euro. Also it should be noted that pre-crisis, the huge consumption booms in countries like Greece were another subsidy to the Germans.
It's ironic, then, that German politicians are giving Merkel such a hard time about bailing out her peers. It seems like a classic case of overvaluing the seen -- direct transfers to other countries -- over the unseen, the pernicious effects of currency system that doesn't work.
http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-benefits-from-the-eurozone-2011-4 (http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-benefits-from-the-eurozone-2011-4)
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The EU's Dirty Secret
the real "secret" is that for no other reason than greed and warmongering we're still fighting each other since 3000 yrs instead of living in peace with each other like good neighbours.
i'm not at all against nationalism, but the kind of nationalism we've witnessed so far is just the same scam going on and on to divide and conquer us giving nothing back, we can all see the practical results now, the whole continent is run by bankers and the richest 1% and you complain they will tell you to F off and word harder, as if it was our fault of the results of Their wars and mismanagement ...
if the banks go bankrupt the ECB will print a few trillions to save them, if i end up under a bridge i'll be told it's my fault if my clients can't pay me on time or if lost my job.
in the meantime a random illegal migrant fresh off the boat will be given a hotel room with lunch and dinner included, probably even cigarettes and a residence permit.
Merkel and her gang of crooks are just pawns of the banking system and are not even ashamed to show their real face in the open, we're now de facto even less important and carrying less rights than non citizens and tourists, we've come to this ... and the fact only communists and neo-fascists are left telling things as they are is a very sad development, the european social democracy reached its lowest point and will soon cease to exist if the trend keeps going on.
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The EU's Dirty Secret: Germany Is The Biggest Welfare Recipient There Is
The standard way of thinking about the eurozone is this: Germany is strong, France is a bit less strong, and everyone else mooches off their strength.
Certainly that's how it's appeared lately, post-crisis, but that's thinking way too small.
Floyd Norris at NYT sheds some light on what's actually been the case, going back to the creation of the Euro: Germany is the biggest beneficiary around, and everyone else has been losers.
Basically, because periphery countries like Portugal and Greece and Spain are not able to devalue their currencies to a point where they have competitive labor forces, Germany is the huge winner.
Its trade balance has surged from being in a small deficit pre-Euro to a huge surplus post euro.
([url]http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/4db1bd55ccd1d51105230000-564-259/chart.png[/url])
Sans euro, Germany's neighbors would be far more competitive than they are now. Also, if we went back to each country having their own currencies, the Deutsche Mark would surge beyond where the euro is now, making Germany even less competitive as BMWs became less affordable for everyone else.
The workers of Spain, Italy, France and everyone else are crippled to benefit the Germans, and its insistence on a strong Euro. Also it should be noted that pre-crisis, the huge consumption booms in countries like Greece were another subsidy to the Germans.
It's ironic, then, that German politicians are giving Merkel such a hard time about bailing out her peers. It seems like a classic case of overvaluing the seen -- direct transfers to other countries -- over the unseen, the pernicious effects of currency system that doesn't work.
It's certainly true that Germany has benefitted hugely from being in the Eurozone ... but that is their reward for their industries being highly competitive and their citizens for being thrifty.
It seems that in Germany the workforce has largely accepted minimal increases in pay for over a decade __ in total contrast to the French for example where prices have increases hugely since the Euro was introduced. If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.
Before the crash the frugal nature of the German people was considered to be a brake on their own economy. They were producing great cars, furniture, white goods, etc but too many Germans preferred to keep their money in the bank rather than spend it. Their behaviour is quite different to citizens of the UK for example, many of whom will keep spending on stuff until their credit is maxed-out.
Yes, Germany is now doing very well from being in the Eurozone but it is only because of their own hard work and self-discipline. It is something that less efficient countries should admire and seek to emulate rather than being envious and critical.
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The EU's Dirty Secret
Merkel and her gang of crooks are just pawns of the banking system....
True. Not only that. She is even allowing that fundamental laws of german citizens are violated every day and just hangs in there like a lifeless zombie puppet acting only on behalf of banks and powerful institutions.
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Yes, Germany is now doing very well from being in the Eurozone but it is only because of their own hard work and self-discipline. It is something that less efficient countries should admire and seek to emulate rather than being envious and critical.
How can you say something like this?! How can you say this ignoring the different recent histories of each country? I'm not even talking about cultural differences. Just simple historical and social data.
Germany started the 20th century as a heavily industrialized country, with a high level of education compared to others.
Despite provoking two world wars and destroying Europe, shifting the world power to USA, not only got two bailouts for the war compensations but even got huge economic aid through the Marshal plan. Besides, the lack of army after WWII allowed it to invest that money into the economy.
If you're interested, take a look at the story of Portugal in the 20th century and social indicators and tell me how could we recover from the problems we had, like a 48 years of isolationist, medievalist, fascist dictatorship, with a period of 13 years of a colonial war fought in three different fronts in Africa deadlier to Portugal than the Vietnam to US (in scale). But if you want, take a look at the period between 1900 and 1926 too.
When we got into the EEC in 1986 we had just got out of a revolution, and were 70 years at least behind Germany. The population didn't had education and the illiteracy was huge. Do you think that we would just start building Mercedes or jet planes in a couple of years? It takes at least a couple generations to minimize the difference.
I'm not saying that Germany and the Germans do not have merit, and that we don't have anything to learn from them. Far from it.
But ignoring the history from the other countries and thinking that everyone is able to recover from a totally different historic, social and economic situation in a few years just by snapping the fingers is naive at best.
That is why this whole EU has gotten to where it is today. Some people think it's just a question of throwing money and all is solved. And when things go bad it can only be because others are lazy...
My sister-in-law worked in the factory of Leica in Portugal and will possibly again. I'm guessing you heard that name before, right? After 40 years in Portugal Leica built a new factory just a couple of years ago investing millions on it despite the fact that they could have taken it to cheaper places. Why haven't they? Because the portuguese workers are excellent. In fact they are the ones who repair the defective products Germans build in Germany!
So why aren't we replicating that efficiency and success in other areas? The top management being German obviously helps, but the real question lies on what I said earlier, the disadvantage we had from the start in historical and social terms that impaired Portugal to compete on the high-value and technological advanced products.
And when the EU opened the gates of Europe to China and others it was even worse. The few industry we were left with could not compete in price with them and closed, despite some factories (including German ones) got back to Portugal because the Chinese could not match the quality and competence of the Portuguese.
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True. Not only that. She is even allowing that fundamental laws of german citizens are violated every day and just hangs in there like a lifeless zombie puppet acting only on behalf of banks and powerful institutions.
all i can say is there's a strong polarization going on across europe now, both the right and left wing are rising over 20-25% almost everywhere and germany will be next so Merkel's days are numbered and they can only blame themselves for digging their own grave.
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If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.
actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.
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If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.
actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.
And this happens where there is a strong competition on a free market, with little government interference.
Or exactly what Greece is asked to implement.
Even more "shocking": food in Germany is more expensive than in USA. I wonder why? Hmmm....
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.
The union of the UK has been in existence for over 300 years and is democratically approved. In short ... it works. In contrast the UK public only ever voted to join the 'Common Market', a simple trade agreement and that was 40 years ago. Almost all of us would still vote in favour of that. What we don't want or need is the EU dictating 80% of the laws that govern us, unbridled immigration, excessive cost and little democracy or accountability. We're not interested in a federal Europe .. because it won't work ... as is proven by the issues with Greece amongst many others.
Farage did resign as leader immediately after the election (in which he won nearly 4M votes but secured only one seat, more votes in fact than the SNP who won 57 seats in parliament) but was persuaded to 'un-resign' three days later.
But hey ... I'm sure you know all this but feel free to distort it and leave out most of the pertinent facts to suit your own little agenda.
Anyway ... back on the topic of Greece.
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Habemus papam!
http://www.amna.gr/english/articleview.php?id=10546
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.
actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.
In Portugal, with 30/40 you just fill a bag of basic groceries even on LIDL and similar discount supermarkets. To fill a trolley, expect to spend at least 150 of basic white brand products. And we pay this with the small salaries we have.
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If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.
actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.
In Portugal, with 30/40 you just fill a bag of basic groceries even on LIDL and similar discount supermarkets. To fill a trolley, expect to spend at least 150 of basic white brand products. And we pay this with the small salaries we have.
... yes - but you Portuguese and Greeks are lazy, and Germans are working a lot, these racist theories we read in these pages many times, therefore the Latin Europe should be separated from the Anglo Saxon Europe - immediately...
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.
Racist because people don't want to end up in 3rd world muslim guettos? Come back in 15 years and tell me how european multicultural wonderland worked out for you. Even Merkel admitted it was a huge failure. UK, France, Belgium, Sweden, Germany are already culturally and socially broken and it's only going to get worse. Sorry, but I don't buy this anti-white propaganda. All right wing parties are gaining ground because they are the only ones that listen to the people.
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... yes - but you Portuguese and Greeks are lazy, and Germans are working a lot, these racist theories we read in these pages many times, therefore the Latin Europe should be separated from the Anglo Saxon Europe - immediately...
Average annual hours actually worked
Portugal: 1.852
Germany: 1.363
Source: https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm (https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm)
Level of GDP per capita and productivity
Portugal: $35 usd
Germany: $62 usd
Source: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV (http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV)
Looking at these stats, most people will immediately say: Look! Those Portuguese workers are nothing but a bunch of lazy, ineffective and incompetent workers!
And that is what the central Europe politicians and media want people to think, because that's the immediate reading from those numbers. A Portuguese worker is producing almost half of the wealth a German one does, while working more hours!
What the politicians and media rarely say is that the Productivity level is not linked to the efficiency and commitment of the worker, BUT to the wealth he produces based on the product he works on.
Saying that, if you got a German working 8 hours on a high-end product like a Mercedes, he will always be more "productive" than a Portuguese seamstress sewing t-shirts even if she worked 24 hours a day with the same commitment and efficiency of the German!
In Portugal, these "Productivity" numbers have been used for years now to bash the Portuguese and lead us into an almost new type of slavery, by destroying our moral and protest ability and justifying the increase of the numbers of hours and all attacks on workers rights.
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... yes - but you Portuguese and Greeks are lazy, and Germans are working a lot, these racist theories we read in these pages many times, therefore the Latin Europe should be separated from the Anglo Saxon Europe - immediately...
Average annual hours actually worked
Portugal: 1.852
Germany: 1.363
Source: [url]https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm[/url] ([url]https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm[/url])
Level of GDP per capita and productivity
Portugal: $35 usd
Germany: $62 usd
Source: [url]http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV[/url] ([url]http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV[/url])
Looking at these stats, most people will immediately say: Look! Those Portuguese workers are nothing but a bunch of lazy, ineffective and incompetent workers!
And that is what the central Europe politicians and media want people to think, because that's the immediate reading from those numbers. A Portuguese worker is producing almost half of the wealth a German one does, while working more hours!
What the politicians and media rarely say is that the Productivity level is not linked to the efficiency and commitment of the worker, BUT to the wealth he produces based on the product he works on.
Saying that, if you got a German working 8 hours on a high-end product like a Mercedes, he will always be more "productive" than a Portuguese seamstress sewing t-shirts even if she worked 24 hours a day with the same commitment and efficiency of the German!
In Portugal, these "Productivity" numbers have been used for years now to bash the Portuguese and lead us into an almost new type of slavery, by destroying our moral and protest ability and justifying the increase of the numbers of hours and all attacks on workers rights.
great post - the truth is on our side - we will win -
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Even more "shocking": food in Germany is more expensive than in USA. I wonder why? Hmmm....
because it's like comparing apples and oranges.
taxation is lower in the USA, the Unions have been almost killed in the 80s with Reaganomics, there's no Minimum Wage and even if there was they would find a way to recoup the costs in other ways, millions of unskilled workers who are paid a pittance while keeping wages below the poverty line, and since it's America they will also blamed and shamed for being enslaved in a low paying job .. in america it's never society being at fault, the blame is always on those at the endpoint of the whole system, there's a good reason they abolished slavery just to replace it with even cheaper salaries and ponzi schemes.
moreover, american workers have barely 2 weeks of paid holiday, most don't have even a basic health insurance, and you'll need to get at least a 50K $ loan to enroll in a decent university.
said that, yes food is cheaper and property is cheaper and oil/gas are also a lot cheaper, but at what price ?
there's always a price to pay, security and crime for instance, and how it can be healthy for a society when a 50K/year salary is barely enough to belong to the lower middle class ?
sure you'll save on food but the next day you'll get a 5000$ bill from your dentist or your doctor, all things that would cost 10x times less anywhere else including germany and while you're busy working your as-s off your wife could be having an affair with someone else and hit you with divorce and lifetime alimony (unheard of in europe, thanks god) ...
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In Portugal, with 30/40 you just fill a bag of basic groceries even on LIDL and similar discount supermarkets. To fill a trolley, expect to spend at least 150 of basic white brand products. And we pay this with the small salaries we have.
but on the other side it's a lot cheaper to rent a house in Portugal than pretty much anywhere else in western union and that's why portuguese salaries are aligned that way.
however, i agree that despite the EU having removed all the tax burden on imported products many areas are still affected by a lack of cheap imports, this is obvious especially in the price of wine and cheese no matter if it's produced just 200km away often it will cost 2-3x times more for no * reason than the greed of the distribution industry .. Carrefour and all the other top supermarkets are to blame for this distortion of the local economies, thanks god there are discount chains like LIDL etc to counterbalance their dominance and monopoly.
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All right wing parties are gaining ground because they are the only ones that listen to the people.
mass immigration translated in greedy employers replacing local employee with cheaper immigrants.
these guys previously stuck with the left wing all their life but now they're the ones enjoying the disastrous results of the leftist politics imposed in europe since the 80s and their only option now is the right wing, out of desperation in most of the cases.
but the right wing won't be able to change too much anytime soon as now it's too late and the issues are systemic and out of reach for our governments, only a closed-doors policy could benefit our local economies more than the actual open-doors globalization that is only benefiting our exporters while leaving nothing to anyone else.
look at how Russia is now doing great since the economic sanctions, their local industries have been boosted by local demand for locally grown foods and products and as a nation they're big enough to produce on their own pretty much anything including wine and a few exotic fruits, they're one of the few countries who are pretty much in condition of being totally sustainable and autarchic.
europe instead cannot afford this luxury, we'll be always dependent on foreign oil and gas and gold/iron/copper/whatever, our co-dependency to russia in particular is something we'll have to deal forever even if we switch more and more towards green energy.
as predicted by Adam Smith and many other economists in the past, our fate is to move where the jobs are, not viceversa, it's pointless to expect the factories to come back in our own sh-itty village, not gonna happen .. but now the jobs available in EU are not enough for everybody and at the same time due to the linguistic barrier you can't expect people to migrate so easily across the EU, that's one fine example for why some economic theories work fine in the USA but turn into a disaster when applied in europe.
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
well, at least the oligarchy is finally showing it's real face.
i'm not too much scared by the TTIP actually, especially considering it will boost the euro economy in many ways to the detriment of many many mediocre american goods that are still on the market just because of protectionism ... they'll be the ones being flooded by german cars and euro foods, not viceversa.
on the other side i would also welcome with open arms an american style "hire and fire" policy in certain work environments where our guys are overpaid for doing Fk all, see the millions of civil servants and much more ..
and finally, europe is already unrecognizeable compared to the 70s and 80s, with my family i traveled abroad even when i was a kid and i can tell you things were veeeery different, i mean southern europe in particular were so backwards and cheap, eastern europe was totally third world, trains were slow and dirty, no cheap airlines, people were supposed to stick with their job all their life, not much social mobility, hard to work and study abroad, rampant corruption and political extremism, hard drugs everywhere with kids being told to avoid public parks for fear of touching syringes left by the bunch of drug addicts and freaks, all the cars were mostly produced locally and same for the food in supermarkets apart for imported liquors and a handful of other premium products, electronics was expensive anywhere, traveling was either for the rich or for the adventurous moving with camper vans or camping on the cheap, i could go on and on but moral of the story everything changed big time in the last 30-40 yrs in pretty much any field as far as i've witnessed.
now what's the next step, the TTIP ? i don't think it's such a big deal in general, it's impact will be mainly in the financial and banking sector, for anything else europe is already a joke so it can't get any worse than now .. i lived in the US and it's certainly not hell on earth ... there are pros and cons just like anywhere else ..
if you ask me, the main issue at stake is the dumbing down and brainwashing and indoctrination the average american is force-fed since birth.
the kind of crass ridiculous nationalism imposed in the US is also of the worst type but i can't see how sh-it like that could ever fly with europeans.
i mean it's 70 yrs they're trying to americanize us but it's been a total failure in many ways and rightfully so, the TTIP won't change the current cultural scenario, actually it could even benefit the americans ...
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.
The union of the UK has been in existence for over 300 years and is democratically approved. In short ... it works. In contrast the UK public only ever voted to join the 'Common Market', a simple trade agreement and that was 40 years ago. Almost all of us would still vote in favour of that. What we don't want or need is the EU dictating 80% of the laws that govern us, unbridled immigration, excessive cost and little democracy or accountability. We're not interested in a federal Europe .. because it won't work ... as is proven by the issues with Greece amongst many others.
Farage did resign as leader immediately after the election (in which he won nearly 4M votes but secured only one seat, more votes in fact than the SNP who won 57 seats in parliament) but was persuaded to 'un-resign' three days later.
But hey ... I'm sure you know all this but feel free to distort it and leave out most of the pertinent facts to suit your own little agenda.
Anyway ... back on the topic of Greece.
Thanks for that. It sums up my feelings exactly. Common market yes, but the political BS they can keep. I await the results of the promised referendum here with interest, to see how they are going to screw us this time.
And don't get me started on the UKIP / SNP fiasco. How can you have two different voting systems in the same parliament? That result shows what a fiasco the whole thing is!
I'm waiting for the English to be given a referendum on whether WE want to stay in the British union! :-)
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I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want.
of course, because since the last millennias the only "war" really going on is the Class War, and for obvious reasons the Rich class always wins and there's nothing we plebs can do about it, our only option is to adapt to the new scenario and see what sticks on the wall, or migrate to greener pastures which i also recommend but even in the middle of nowhere in a godforsaken third world country you'll find there's a hierarchy and a pyramid of power and a class-based society with rich and poors and eventually something in the middle, there's no way out from this, there's not a single place which is "classless"or "equal" or even just "honest" ...
the richest 1% hate us with passion, nothing is gonna change that, no matter if now the right wing starts winning elections all over europe or parties like Podemos in Spain start spreading like a virus across the EU .. they're just an exception to the rule, and they will sell out to the rich for a pittance sooner or later, actually i'm sure they're all a trojan horse already backed by the power elites just to create more confusion and play with us like cat and mouse as they always did ... we've nothing, they've everything, there's no game at all, it's like a plantation with the slaves, it's crazy so many people delude themselves that we can even "fight" a battle ..
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And don't get me started on the UKIP
Farage is one of the most talented nationalists in europe, he's funny and goes straight to the point without the typical mumbo jumbo and demagogy of the other european conservatives.
i can't understand why the UKIP isn't winning in bigger terms but give them some more time and they can become UK's biggest party.
i mean, time is running out for leftists all around europe, their BS have been exposed so badly now that there's nothing they can hope to recover the loss, just a matter of time.
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Even more "shocking": food in Germany is more expensive than in USA. I wonder why? Hmmm....
because it's like comparing apples and oranges.
taxation is lower in the USA, the Unions have been almost killed in the 80s with Reaganomics, there's no Minimum Wage and even if there was they would find a way to recoup the costs in other ways, millions of unskilled workers who are paid a pittance while keeping wages below the poverty line, and since it's America they will also blamed and shamed for being enslaved in a low paying job .. in america it's never society being at fault, the blame is always on those at the endpoint of the whole system, there's a good reason they abolished slavery just to replace it with even cheaper salaries and ponzi schemes.
moreover, american workers have barely 2 weeks of paid holiday, most don't have even a basic health insurance, and you'll need to get at least a 50K $ loan to enroll in a decent university.
said that, yes food is cheaper and property is cheaper and oil/gas are also a lot cheaper, but at what price ?
there's always a price to pay, security and crime for instance, and how it can be healthy for a society when a 50K/year salary is barely enough to belong to the lower middle class ?
sure you'll save on food but the next day you'll get a 5000$ bill from your dentist or your doctor, all things that would cost 10x times less anywhere else including germany and while you're busy working your as-s off your wife could be having an affair with someone else and hit you with divorce and lifetime alimony (unheard of in europe, thanks god) ...
I never said life in US is better. Nothing is for free in this world and something gotta give.
This is why, for the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.
The only reason I mentioned US is to help you get out of the shock caused by the cheap German food.
One more time: strong competition is good for consumers. The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition. This leads to a new equilibrium where prices are always higher. Or to an unstoppable instability and inflation spiral, if the government intervention is beyond the market tolerance.
Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with. It is even tougher that the one rejected by the referendum.
In a way, the whole thread is now pointless. All this nonsense about greedy capitalists and more is now obsolete. Tsipras did what he was supposed to do before creating all this circus.
It remains to be seen if Tsipras will keep his word and implement these reforms, once he gets his hand on the money.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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This is why, the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.
The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition.
Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with.
nothing has been signed yet, the latest news are about something big being discussed tomorrow or sunday but at this point it seems an agreement has been reached for 12 billions over 3 yrs and new draconian cuts in the public sector.
so, overall a decent deal for both parties, but ...
as for competition, it all ends up in a monopoly or a cartel sooner or later, of course while it lasts it's beneficial for consumers but it never lasts forever, this is obvious looking at pretty much any industry.
actually new technologies are the only disrupting factor that can change an industry overnight but once the technological gap is absorbed it's back to business as usual.
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This is why, the first time, I even partially agree with you: some of the issues you mentioned are true, some are exagerated and some are false.
The government intervention in economy, limits or distorts the competition.
Back to Greece. Read the new reform package signed by Tsipras.
These are the toughest reforms Greece has ever agreed with.
nothing has been signed yet, the latest news are about something big being discussed tomorrow or sunday but at this point it seems an agreement has been reached for 12 billions over 3 yrs and new draconian cuts in the public sector.
so, overall a decent deal for both parties, but ...
as for competition, it all ends up in a monopoly or a cartel sooner or later, of course while it lasts it's beneficial for consumers but it never lasts forever, this is obvious looking at pretty much any industry.
actually new technologies are the only disrupting factor that can change an industry overnight but once the technological gap is absorbed it's back to business as usual.
A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.
Back to Greece.
What is important is that Tsipras himself has capitulated.
It is very unlikely to see this package rejected.
This "Go Greece" euphoria will have to face the reality, one way or another.
Too bad Greeks still have to go through this ordeal, with banks closed, empty supermarkets, fear and uncertainty because of irresponsible politicians.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.
Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.
The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...
Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.
I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
... great speech... but - even more fascinating is Tsiprases expression - without emotion - charming man of steel...
Tsipras caved in. He doesn't have what it takes, therefore his expression.
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.
Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.
The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...
Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.
I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.
On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders
On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.
Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.
Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.
Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.
Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.
The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...
Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.
I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.
On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders
On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.
Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.
Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.
Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.
Once again, you will never understand what Im saying in that state of mind because your inner translator is set on different level.
You are speaking in favor of open trade and free economy...yet you are defending the system that encouraging totally opposite values behind the mask...
For example...strong countries economies entered the union in the early stage to get the best starting positions and a place to set the rules whic are NOT equal for all.
Politicians of newest EU members were corrupted and force to sign certain terms during accession negotiations that are degrading their country positions in the union and favorite the early members.
There are thousands of exporting and producing limits on certain goods for certain countries involved that the open market is all but not FREE and people are forced to stop producing things they produced for decades because the market is owned by old union members who never had to obey such terms to enter the union anyway.
You want examples...
Well the best one is that are killing small fisherman's by insane laws that they have to pay same fixed fee no matter how much fish they produce which are too high for their business and openly financing them to quit their business, while inviting huge companies fleets which are destroying seas and producing huge amount of food while paying that exact fee that goes for small individual family business.
That is not a free market my friend , that's fixed market to favor corporations of early union members and export limits are set to protect established economies so they can firstly destroy and then buy any new competition for pennies end enlarge their market on those new territories. Corporation are invading those new markets without any rules while domestic businesses are held to spread them self on new markets with exporting and production limits.
Limits and borders are limits and borders no matter if they happen on paper or at actual border and limiting any competition on producing or exporting with negotiation contracts signed by corrupted politicians are undemocratic tools that define FIXED economy hidden in term of free market.
Free market would be the one with no limits for anyone so that demand,price and quality of the product play major role on "who will survive" and not setting the rules on the paper that favor some and limit someone else based on the country that he lives in.
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In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days. The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today. Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences. I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want. Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.
These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .
Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.
Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.
The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...
Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist.
I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.
On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):
Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders
On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.
Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.
Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.
Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.
Once again, you will never understand what Im saying in that state of mind because your inner translator is set on different level.
You are speaking in favor of open trade and free economy...yet you are defending the system that encouraging totally opposite values behind the mask...
No, you got it wrong.
I never defended the current system, since a lot more can be done to move it towards a free market economy, indeed.
I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.
And it took all this circus for Tsipras to realize it.
Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
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Then we agree on basic...that's first good step ;)
I don't believe in responsible politicians at first place , if there were honest and responsible they would have never make it to the voting list of their party at the first place and not to mention higher levels of politics on which corruption plays major role. The elections are won by whom has more money and that's a scientifically proven , honest man has same chances as calf in slaughterhouse because firstly no corporate money will stand to back him up and secondly those who own media will discredit him big time.
I believe the system that you and me can agree on being honest can only be built from scratch again and that it should be done by people spontaneously instead of using politics which doesn't represent interest of people nor ever have.
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Then we agree on basic...that's first good step ;)
I don't believe in responsible politicians at first place , if there were honest and responsible they would have never make it to the voting list of their party at the first place and not to mention higher levels of politics on which corruption plays major role. The elections are won by whom has more money and that's a scientifically proven , honest man has same chances as calf in slaughterhouse because firstly no corporate money will stand to back him up and secondly those who own media will discredit him big time.
I believe the system that you and me can agree on being honest can only be built from scratch again and that it should be done by people spontaneously instead of using politics which doesn't represent interest of people nor ever have.
The difference between you and me is that I'm rather optimistic while you are not, even if you call yourself a dreamer.
The world of politics is changing fast. The old media empires, while still powerful, have less and less influence in competition with the new media.
Open border structures, like internet, are good for society.
Open border structures, like free trade are good for society.
Open border structures, like an economy with minimal government intervention are good for society.
This is why, I'm optimistic that, we will see more and more a change in our politicians. And we all play a decisive role in this change, as long as we don't fall for the sirens call.
This can only lead to the better world you are dreaming of.
The fact that Tsipras flip-flopped is a perfect example.
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A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.
China is a mixed economy and is doing very well, the problem is corruption and mismanagement, not the whole idea of state-owned enterprises.
pushing the Free economy to the limit you reach the point where even water is sold by private companies, which has been tried disastrously in california already.
moreover, the market leaders always end up creating a price cartel so all the benefits of the free market cease to exist in the long run.
competition is healthy but can't last too long due to the bigger players doing M&A and enlarging their market share little by little.
ideally, private enterprise should be limited to industries and services that are not mission critical for the well being of the population .. nobody is complaining the state is not producing cars or fashion items, but banks in particular should be only run and owned by the state along with water, gas, electricity and low cost public housing.
if housing is now untolerable in europe's bigger cities is exactly because the govs stopped building council homes for the poors and the greed of the real estate market knows no bounds ... nobody needs this kind of robbing capitalism we're witnessing now not to mention it's spreading like a virus in any possible niche eroding our buying power, first it's real estate and next it will be healthcare and schools just like in the US.
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Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.
but then explain me why protectionism is working very well in the US and why foreign-unfriendly and openly racists countries like Korea or Japan are doing very well.
as for the VAT why it's 20-23% in the EU but only 8% in Japan or Switzerland ?
so funny to point out many of these economic dogmas we here over and over have often no ground in reality including in the richest and most capitalist countries.
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Free market would be
every possible economic scenario including first and foremost the so called Free Market is doomed to end up into a total monopoly of the richest families owning the whole economy and banking system and by proxy having power toward the politics and the military.
communism, capitalism, hybrids, it's just a matter of time and that's why they all fail following a typical "boom/bust cycle" over time.
failure is usually caused by wars but in fact wars can only happen when the state is no longer able to defend its borders ... chain effect ... rooted in the unsustainability of the economic model itself !
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The old media empires, while still powerful, have less and less influence in competition with the new media.
Open border structures, like internet, are good for society.
Open border structures, like free trade are good for society.
Open border structures, like an economy with minimal government intervention are good for society.
This is why, I'm optimistic that, we will see more and more a change in our politicians.
totally utopia.
sure, the medium and the ways information and products are being sold and produced are changing very fast but the result is exactly the same as before and de facto we're now living in a police state.
propaganda is working fine no matter if now it's using the internet instead of TV or newspapers and books.
actually new anti-dissent laws have been made all across the West with the excuse of terrorism or anti-government activity etc, plenty of web sites get banned every day so that now their only place to hide is the so called "deep web" which is a joke since the whole internet traffic is monitored anyway.
free trade is a nice word that doesn't hold water in the real world, ironically this is even more true for the US.
minimal government intervention always translates in double or triple costs when run by private enterprises, see how much you're going to pay in the US for healthcare or education compared to europe o japan ...
you might be optimistic but just because you're still too young and/or naive.
said that, if someone has real skills he will make a good living no matter where he's born, i've seen great things being done even in the poorest and most illiterate countries.
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A state controlled economy is full, or only made of those monopolies you mentioned. And there is no way to break them.
On the other hand, in a free economy, there will always be some creative entrepreneur with a better service or a new technology, ready to chip market shares from that big (bureaucratic and unflexible by now) company.
China is a mixed economy and is doing very well, the problem is corruption and mismanagement, not the whole idea of state-owned enterprises.
pushing the Free economy to the limit you reach the point where even water is sold by private companies, which has been tried disastrously in california already.
moreover, the market leaders always end up creating a price cartel so all the benefits of the free market cease to exist in the long run.
competition is healthy but can't last too long due to the bigger players doing M&A and enlarging their market share little by little.
ideally, private enterprise should be limited to industries and services that are not mission critical for the well being of the population .. nobody is complaining the state is not producing cars or fashion items, but banks in particular should be only run and owned by the state along with water, gas, electricity and low cost public housing.
if housing is now untolerable in europe's bigger cities is exactly because the govs stopped building council homes for the poors and the greed of the real estate market knows no bounds ... nobody needs this kind of robbing capitalism we're witnessing now not to mention it's spreading like a virus in any possible niche eroding our buying power, first it's real estate and next it will be healthcare and schools just like in the US.
The water is a problem in California, exactly because it is subsidized or subject to price control. Californian farmers grow tropical crops in the desert, because the water is so cheap. And this is creating the scarcity, exactly like subsidezed bread will lead to bread scarcity and black markets.
About house prices: rent control kills developers incentive to build new houses. Too many government imposed zoning restrictions makes difficult to build new houses. On the other hand rent control is not applicable to luxury homes, therefore developers will only invest in expensive new houses. This is the reason why in rent controlled cities like New York, etc housing costs are extremely high.
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I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.
but again you can't turn greece overnight into a seaside version of germany.
the sistemic problems affecting greece go back to 3000 yrs ago, it's nothing new and there's no fix for that.
sure many things can be improved but not the overall result.
in plus all the best and brightest have already left the country for greener pastures as they're not stupid and they know the score ...
i'm certainly a "go greece" cheerleader but c'mon let us enjoy this small pyrrhic victory ... greece is f'ked anyway but at least they had the balls to smack the bankers for a while and the eurocrats are finally showing their true face for all to see.
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I have always stated that the "solution" praised by the "Go Greece" cheerleaders is the worst. Instead of taking corrective actions to move towards that truly free economy, it goes backwards, re-inventing wheels that never worked.
but again you can't turn greece overnight into a seaside version of germany.
the sistemic problems affecting greece go back to 3000 yrs ago, it's nothing new and there's no fix for that.
sure many things can be improved but not the overall result.
in plus all the best and brightest have already left the country for greener pastures as they're not stupid and they know the score ...
i'm certainly a "go greece" cheerleader but c'mon let us enjoy this small pyrrhic victory ... greece is f'ked anyway but at least they had the balls to smack the bankers for a while and the eurocrats are finally showing their true face for all to see.
And this is in line with what you consider utopia. The very fact that the whole world is able to debate the matter (this forum included) makes also possible to see those true colors. Both of those so called eurocrats, as well as the colors of those communist populist leftist utopic parties.
The public exposure makes them more and more aware that we care about their actions.
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About house prices: rent control kills developers incentive to build new houses. Too many government imposed zoning restrictions makes difficult to build new houses. On the other hand rent control is not applicable to luxury homes, therefore developers will only invest in expensive new houses. This is the reason why in rent controlled cities like New York, etc housing costs are extremely high.
a roof on your head is your most important primary need along with water and food but now it seems for the government even howing a pot to pi-ss in is a luxury and you'll be eslaved into 20-30 yrs loans to buy one.
now, wasn't capitalism supposed to give everyone some tangible benefit ?
wasn't the invible hand of the free market supposed to actually improve our lives ?
i see nothing wrong in developers selling luxury homes but our governments totally abdicated from their role of guaranteeing social justice and basic needs.
it's funny we're here commenting on the unsustainability of greece when in fact the entire western world cannot sustain itself any longer and people stopped making kids as they can't even afford a house let alone having a family on their shoulders.
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Both of those so called eurocrats, as well as the colors of those communist populist leftist utopic parties.
The public exposure makes them more and more aware that we care about their actions.
awareness is the first step but there's no guarantee it will be followed by any practical action.
most of these people see the world in black and white and have no way to break the chains that keep them locked into modern slavery, they've just no way out and no exit strategy.
only the greeks migrating abroad will save themselves.
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Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url] ([url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal[/url])
He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.
The union of the UK has been in existence for over 300 years and is democratically approved. In short ... it works. In contrast the UK public only ever voted to join the 'Common Market', a simple trade agreement and that was 40 years ago. Almost all of us would still vote in favour of that. What we don't want or need is the EU dictating 80% of the laws that govern us, unbridled immigration, excessive cost and little democracy or accountability. We're not interested in a federal Europe .. because it won't work ... as is proven by the issues with Greece amongst many others.
Farage did resign as leader immediately after the election (in which he won nearly 4M votes but secured only one seat, more votes in fact than the SNP who won 57 seats in parliament) but was persuaded to 'un-resign' three days later.
But hey ... I'm sure you know all this but feel free to distort it and leave out most of the pertinent facts to suit your own little agenda.
Anyway ... back on the topic of Greece.
You're the one twisting the facts. When someone pledges to resign, they do that, not carry on like he has. Should of known you would be a kipper :)
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Free market would be
every possible economic scenario including first and foremost the so called Free Market is doomed to end up into a total monopoly of the richest families owning the whole economy and banking system and by proxy having power toward the politics and the military.
communism, capitalism, hybrids, it's just a matter of time and that's why they all fail following a typical "boom/bust cycle" over time.
failure is usually caused by wars but in fact wars can only happen when the state is no longer able to defend its borders ... chain effect ... rooted in the unsustainability of the economic model itself !
I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:
"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition including potential competition will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.
The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"
And back to the clasics:
https://youtu.be/tdLBzfFGFQU
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I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:
"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition including potential competition will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.
The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"
if this was true how can you explain the long standing duopoly Canon/Nikon in the DSLR market ?
and while we're writing in a stock industry forum, how do you explain the actual "big-4" monopoly in the stock market, which is now maybe a Big-3 scenario as DT is shifting to the Low-Earners underworld ?
talking about DSLR lenses and competition, all we have is Canon/Nikon with just a handful of good lenses made by Sigma/Tamron/Tokina so basically a triad unless you own a Sony/Fuji/Pentax/Leica or you're a Zeiss freak.
as for tripods, lemme see ... Manfrotto, Gitzo (owned by Manfrotto), and what else ?
or filters ... B+W .. Hoya ...and ???
memory cards ... Sandisk, Crucial, and .. ???
camera bags ... LowePro, Tamrac, ThinkTank, CaseLogic ... and ???
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big4 or big 3 is not a monopoly. ebay is closer to a monopoly,and maybe amazon in some countries.
there was a risk that the stockindustry could be dominated by getty/istock for a long time, but right know we have a multi company world and if you include macro agencies,stocksy,blend,stockfood,some more local stock companies (japan,Middle east) and the new smartphone agencies our options are really much,much bigger than before.
our business is very dynamic, maybe with adobe entering the market we will see a shift again, but it all takes time.
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I am happy to see that now in Greece there seems to be a really strong discussions across all factions to stay in the euro and really commit themselves to it.
They have a huge challenge ahead of them. Only 20% of the country has been properly registered, tax collection is what? 10% of what is due every year? There is finally talk they will get their deal with switzerland, which they could have completed ages ago. the legal system is disfunctional, it can take years to get your day in court,which means contracts between companies cannot really be enforced, which lowers productivity. Or just trying to start a simple business can take months, because the necessary paperwork is incredible. In other countries you can register your business in 4h and start working the next day, here in Germany it will take around 2 weeks, maybe a month if you are unlucky, but thatīs it. But in Greece it is unbelievably frustrating and the pressure on the private sector that is working so hard to move the country forward is always being held back by all kinds of overbloated goverment regulations that just kill any incentive to be an entrepreneur. It is not surprising everyone wants to have a cushy government job.
I do hope the eu doesnīt just hand over the money like that, but they create a plan with clear goals and only release funds if goals are achieved. The greeks wonīt like it, they will feel even more like they are being managed by the eu. But if they want to stay in the euro, they will have to accept it.
Otherwise they can get their drachme back and enjoy all the freedom they want.
They just canīt have it both ways - get the money from other European taxpayers in often much poorer countries and not reform their structures and become competitive.
I think it is also good that the eu is preparing an emergency fund for cyprus, in case things donīt work out.
And that the eu regulations will be changed, so if a country fails to adapt their economy to stand on their own feet/their own income, they have to leave the eurozone. The euro shouldnīt be a transfer union, everybody has to pull their own weight.
They still need to hammer out the details and the agreement then has to be passed by many countries in Europe. I hope Greek TV will show these discussions and votings in other countries, so they get a better feeling how many countries in Europe are involved and that they donīt just have to convince Germany.
It is very disrespectful to all the other member nations, to simply deny them any decision making ability or to insult them by saying they are just colonies of Germany.
Overall, what a waste of time. Tsirpas could have done all this in January and spent the next months actually governing his country to improve their situation.
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I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:
"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition including potential competition will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.
The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"
if this was true how can you explain the long standing duopoly Canon/Nikon in the DSLR market ?
and while we're writing in a stock industry forum, how do you explain the actual "big-4" monopoly in the stock market, which is now maybe a Big-3 scenario as DT is shifting to the Low-Earners underworld ?
talking about DSLR lenses and competition, all we have is Canon/Nikon with just a handful of good lenses made by Sigma/Tamron/Tokina so basically a triad unless you own a Sony/Fuji/Pentax/Leica or you're a Zeiss freak.
as for tripods, lemme see ... Manfrotto, Gitzo (owned by Manfrotto), and what else ?
or filters ... B+W .. Hoya ...and ???
memory cards ... Sandisk, Crucial, and .. ???
camera bags ... LowePro, Tamrac, ThinkTank, CaseLogic ... and ???
Oh my god!
These are not monopolies, my dear friend, but companies in competition with each other, which happen to offer the best price/quality products, these days. You call the Canon-Nikon war, a monopoly? :-[
Besides, nobody forces you to buy Canon nor Nikon. Sony makes great cameras. Maybe even better cameras. You can still buy Pentax, if you want. You can buy Leica, if you feel fancy and want to throw your money away. Why stopping here, use you smartphone camera, for God sake. These things have eaten up a great piece of the Canon/Nikon pie, forcing them to innovate.
Why has their compact camera business virtually dissapeared, if not because Apple has innovated and caught them by surprise?
Why don't you give me the Kodak example? Where is that "Kodak moment"?
Speaking about smartphones, where are those previously universal Nokia phones, my friend? Where are those ugly Ericsson phones?
You forget another simple economical fact: big companies have the opportunity to be efficient through economy of scale and streamlined processes. This is good for consumers! Because they make more efficient use of the capital (until they become too big, too bureaucratic and fall into pieces)
A DSLR could be bloddy expensive, if made manually in a mom and pop shop, if pop takes 1 year, to manually polish your lens. How can mom and pop continously innovate, while polishing that lens?
Or maybe you want a government to start building DSLRs? I'm sure that those DSLRs will be cheaper and much better for consumers than nikon/canon, because governments know better what's good for people!
An idea for your friend, Tsipras! Go Greece! Make us a good DSLR and stick it to those greedy corporate *insult removed*!
I'll not even bother to go into details on the other brands, because this is a total waste of time (fyi, I own 2 Vanguard tripods and a Vanguard backpack ;) )
You have already proven yourself wrong.
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So Tsakalotos signed the document of the greek measures. The one in the left is that signature, the one in the right is his normal signature.
Why are the last greek finance ministers so childish and unprofessional?
To me, it sounds like they are not going to implement the measures, it is just a paper, they just want the debt restructuration.
And why are they protecting the orthodox church anyway?
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And why are they protecting the orthodox church anyway?
Probably the church has the best connections? Seriously, with all the trouble the country is in, you would expect the church to come forward themselves.
I am reading a lot that the banks will need to take money from the bank accounts, otherwise they have to close down. What I donīt understand, why canīt the government convince people to bring their cash back? The Greek people removed 60 billion euros from their banks since January, destabilising them completely. So instead of losing 30% of whatever is left on their accounts, why donīt they all work together and save their own banks??
And nearly every feed I follow I see members of the European parliament asking the obvious - after destroying all trust for 6 months,calling Europe criminals and terrorists, how will Tsirpas convince the EU that the papers he submitted mean anything? That they have any intention of going forward with reforming the country?
I still havenīt heard anyone from the Greek government apologizing for all the insults and complete waste of time with their silly games. All they talk about is how much money they want.
And Syriza spent the last 6 months protecting the rich people, but made the poor suffer by destabilizizing their country by ruining the international reputation of Greece.
Varoufakis, although he is already on holiday, only keeps spilling more poison to the press instead of helping his colleguaes in Athens to repair some of the damage he did. But I guess he needs the flames to spike his book sales.
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The orthodox church has a strong voice in the Greek society and a strong influence in all elections.
No party had the guts to cut their benefits and all kept on paying the church a "protection tax" or "lobbying fee".
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Oh my god!
You call the Canon-Nikon war, a monopoly? :-[
yes, because it's a cartel and they're in league with each other.
thanks god, as you said, there's Sony and other small fries but that's not what i would call a healthy market.
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You said it very well: thank God it is NOT a monopoly!
But you always want to have the last word, no matter how absurd your claim is, continously embarrassing yourself.
Not like you care, anyway.
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Exclusive: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece
In his first interview since resigning, Greece's former Finance Minister says the Eurogroup is completely and utterly controlled by Germany, Greece was set up and last weeks referendum was wasted.
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/exclusive-yanis-varoufakis-opens-about-his-five-month-battle-save-greece (http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/exclusive-yanis-varoufakis-opens-about-his-five-month-battle-save-greece)
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Ah, back to spilling more poison to help his book sales. No longer necessary for him to work for Greece. The real work has to be done by other people, like making the rich pay taxes, cutting military spending etc..,
But he has found his instant money angle, just keep bashing Germany and deny that other countries in Europe have intelligent people and voters too...
If he bothered to read foreign newspapers, he would notice what people in the rest of Europe think of him. And yes there is a Europe outside of Germany, millions of proud people with their own culture and identity.
But he will keep hugging the media spotlight until the money runs out.
At least Tsirpas seems to be serious about achieving results.
Fighting the oligarchs will be very hard work, but if he can win that fight, he will be a real hero.
I still believe the drachme would have given more options. the uk, poland, switzerland all seem to be doing fine with their currencies.
But if the greek people love the euro so much, it is their choice of course. If they believe to be part of the eurozone with all its regulations is best for their economy, then lets see what they do with it.
All we can do is send tax money and watch them work and reform their country.
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This reminds me the referendum "victory" and the subsequent agreekment: https://vine.co/v/enhjKXxjPrT
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Here is a good summary of the challenges ahead and why the economy of greece is still below rwanda.
But of course it is all the fault of Germany...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/business/international/greeks-worry-about-bailouts-push-for-an-economic-overhaul.html?hpw&rref&action=click&pgtype=Homepage (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/business/international/greeks-worry-about-bailouts-push-for-an-economic-overhaul.html?hpw&rref&action=click&pgtype=Homepage)
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But of course it is all the fault of Germany...
...true...
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tax collection is what? 10% of what is due every year?
No, it's something like 32% of GDP, very close to the German level. The nonsense about "Greeks only pay 10% of their taxes" comes from a misinterpretation (wilful?) of a report on total outstanding arrears, which cover many years and now amount to about 90% of the annual "take". The German figures look good compared to the Greek ones because Germany routinely writes off unpaid taxes after a certain time so the total doesn't keep piling up.
If you look at the actual level of tax evasion as a percentage of GDP you find it is cited as 1.8% in Greece and 1.1% in Germany. (Open the link in this page and go to p.16 on the PDF to see the table https://ideas.repec.org/p/ces/ceswps/_4004.html (https://ideas.repec.org/p/ces/ceswps/_4004.html)). Furthermore, Ireland is almost at the Greek level, the UK is exactly the same and Cyprus, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Bulgaria are all ahead of Greece. Even Denmark - surely seen as an upstanding, moral, north-European country - is within a whisker (0.1%) of the Greek rate. So the idea that Greeks are the world's worst tax evaders isn't true - they not even anywhere near being the worst in the EU, in fact they are exactly average for the OECD, yet the Greeks are whipped for it while nobody say a thing about the immoral attitude towards paying tax of the Danes, the Swedes, the Irish, the Poles or the Cypriots (in fact, Ireland and Cyprus are held up as examples for the Greeks to follow).
BTW, I notice with some amusement that the report I quoted there is a discussion paper for a Munich-based economics research group. https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome.html (https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome.html)
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The reported gdp is missing the shadow economy that is not reported, especially professionals like doctors and lawyers underreport their income.
http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pledges-rest-hard-keep-promise-tax-reforms-152603452--sector.html (http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pledges-rest-hard-keep-promise-tax-reforms-152603452--sector.html)
http://qz.com/441393/yes-greece-has-a-serious-tax-evasion-problem/ (http://qz.com/441393/yes-greece-has-a-serious-tax-evasion-problem/)
Do those calculations include the incredible level of bribes? because I really don't see that kind of extreme bribing going on in the other places I know.
It must be a huge level of their countries economy and of course nobody is paying any taxes on that.
I've met various people who claim they haven't paid taxes since the seventies, obviously I don't know if they are just bragging, but since their taxtcollectors often don't even have computers and always need to connect with collegueas via snailmail it is hard to believe that tax collection is the same level as in Sweden.
didn't the new finance minister just explain in an interview how big the loss is and that collecting taxes was their biggest challenge?
Even varoufakis said that raising vat was useless because people would just feel entitled to pay even less taxes and the government would take in even less although the tax had been raised.
If their government structures were working and efficient, why would greece need all that money?
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I've just noticed Table 5, which gives a different analysis taking account self-employment - and puts Greece higher up the table at 4.8% (but still behind Malta 4.9%, Cyprus 5.4, Bulgaria, Romania - Gemany is at 1.9%). I think these figures are using a calculation for including the shadow economy but I can't be bothered to try to understand the whole paper, I was just searching to try to find out what the relative levels of tax evasion are believed to be.
My point still stands that it's far from being an exclusively Greek offence and Greece is apparently not the worst offender, though it's held up almost as if it is unique to Greece and every other country is white as the driven snow. There's no doubt tax evasion is a major problem but there's also no doubt that it is being blown completely out of proportion when people say 90% of tax is evaded - which is wildly untrue.
I don't know if bribes have been calculated into the mix or not, they should have been as a bribe is a form of earnings. I really have trouble believing the bribe level that Transparency International suggests is "average", I'd been told, for example, that 50 euros was the going rate for a doctor, while Transparency's bottom level is double that. And perhaps the massive bribes from Seimens and suchlike are included in the calculations. Since nobody is going to issue their list of bribe fees the statistics are going to be even harder to establish than tax evasion figures. If bribes do, indeed, run at 1,500 euros on average it's obvious that very few people pay them more than once every few years since you can't be handing that amount out "on average" every few weeks.
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I agree that 1500 dollars seems high, maybe it relates to getting ahead for surgery at hospitals etc...
Daily bribing will be in the range of normal prices for these services,except that it is not reported and always done in cash.
From my families experience bribes and black money are completely pervasive on all levels of government and daily life. Since many of them also work or study abroad, I think they are in a very good position to compare.
they think it is totally unfair for the rest of europe to pay for greece, because there is enough money in the country it is just not used efficiently and the rich are not taxed.
The greek church is the second largest landowner, all tax exempt. The church also owns many normal businesses and they don't pay taxes.
neither do the shipping giants.
they say, they are expecting new elections in autumn as another delaying tactic by the government. They have just received fresh money, so the immediate pressure is gone.
They will pass a few laws that nobody follows and that won't be enforced and in a sear or two the greek government will start again blaming it all on germany and ask for more Money.
This is the third bailout, there will be a fourth and a fifth until the money from the other countries stops.
I really can't see especially the poorer countries to be sponsoring greece forever.
The drachme would help their economy, but it looks like taking more loans isthe easier solution in the short term.
Even if you remove all debt,which of course would be unfair to the other countries that are actually paying it back, it wouldn't change the greek economy at all.
Until they work together to create a strong,competitive economy,streamline their legal system, remove work privileges and monopolies in many trades, nothing will change.
Blaming others is not a philosphy that gets things done.
Eta: have you ever seen a health insurance in the uk or sweden that allows you to insure yourself for "little envelopes" i.e. The bribes?
I haven't.
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There was a Brit in our village who suffered a serious illness with a blood vessel exploding in his stomach. He was hospitalised, had emergency surgery (which he was lucky to survive) was flown to Athens by military aircraft because he had to be kept a sea-level pressure, had more operations, was flown back to the local hospital after about a year and then had another operation to reconstruct his throat - I think they'd taken a bit of it out - which, unfortunately, proved too much for him. I never heard of a single "envelope" being involved, so perhaps they only expect envelopes from locals.
I agree that the church should pull its weight and that the wealthy should be pursued to get the tax - hopefully Syriza will do something about that, since they are supposed to be champions of the poor - but then, so were Pasok.
The shipping magnates are apparently taxed on their local revenues but not on cash earned outside Greece, even so, they still make up about 18% of the Greek economy. There was an interesting paper published recently that argued that the thing to do with them was not to try to tax their global earnings - which would drive them away - but to require them to do almost all their banking through Greek institutions, which would bring a huge amount of foreign capital that is being stored overseas at the moment. It sounds a sensible solution to me.
The point of the bailouts is to ensure that Greece doesn't get free money from other countries, if they would call it a loan instead of a "bailout" (which sounds like a gift) it would probably help with public sentiment. Even with "haircuts" they are talking about reduced interest rates, not about capital being written off, aren't they? Borrowing money at an interest rate of -0.2% and lending it to Greece at 2% or whatever is a good deal for German taxpayers - but only as long as the loan is eventually repaid, that's the tricky bit.
I'm not sure about the drachma. It would make the debts far worse - probably push them up to 300% of GDP, it would make securing imports of vital goods - including food, fuel and supplies for manufacturing - difficult. It would, however, provide a solid bottom to start rebuilding on but without access to foreign capital untill the even more unrepayable loans had been repaid or forgiven.
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Even if you remove all debt, how can Greece expect to pay the pensions they pay with 60% youth unemployment...
They will be in trouble again in a few years.
Sometimes people don't want to see what it is so obvious. It's easier to say it's Germany's fault, I even see people in Facebook calling the germans nazists when they post about Greece (!!!)
Of course Europe is responsible (they didn't act at the right time). But each country needs to change what it doesn't work and what is unfair, and Greece has a lot to do too!
Varoufakis did nothing for 5 months, what a waste of time...
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Guys, i think it's time to let go of the whole Greece VS Germany thing. Just because populist politicians and media in both countries want to put the blame for Greece's problems to Germany and vice versa doesn't mean that they are right. We as educated individuals working in an international environment know best and we should not embrace populism.
There are many populist anti-EU parties on the rise in Europe at the moment, very similar to Syriza and ANEL which govern Greece at the moment so keep that in mind the next time you vote and vote responsibly.
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If they have the drachme, part of the debt could actually be written off, one of the reasons many people in the eurozone suggested it and I think even Paul krugman advocated it.
the problem with being part of the eurozone is that you cannot just write off debts, the loan can be extended, but not simply written off. It is part of the package of having the euro.
do you seriously believe germany or any european country gave greece loans because they thought they would make a huge amount of money from the interest???
There are much better options to loan money with interest on the world market.
everyone knew they were propping up the greek government, hopefully buying them time to implement the badly needed reforms.
but it takes honesty, not just from the politicians, but being honest with yourself as a citizen that your life will change, sometimes, painfully change if you want to stand on your own feet.
obviously people took early retirement and very high pensions, much higher than their countries own productive output, for granted.
they just have to imagine for one second that the rest of europe does not exist, how will they pull themselves out of this mess?
How can they attract investors, how can they encourage modern business? How did other countries do it, that didnīt have such generous eu sponsorship?
but unfortunately I believe they will continue down the path of fighting change, having lots of strikes until the flow of money from outside totally stops.
life is still too comfortable for many and since the black market money is such a vital part of peopleīs income, I doubt they will give it up soon.
the drachme would help, but of course it is a visibly more drastic step then getting another loan. as long as money comes out of the cash machine, even if it is restricted. life is good.
they will again complain "the money from the bailout just went to the banks" and completely ignore it was they themselves that withdraw over 40 billion ! euros since january and thus destabilized their own banks.
all they had to do was bring the money back and just use what is really needed. but of course this would mean taking personal responsibility and putting your money in for the good of your own country.
much easier to moan and complain until outsiders send another cheque.
I wish Greece all the best, but from what I have seen, I doubt it will improve. those that are flexible will go abroad to start a business, they do send money home, but they are not creating jobs in Greece. It is these entrepreneurial people the country has to attract, the talent it has to welcome.
And attracting foreign investment, ask Microsoft to build a computer center...etc...who will want to invest if the legal system simply doesnīt work? You canīt run a business without a proper legal system to enforce contracts.
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Oh, I don't think the loans to Greece are a money-making project, isn't the ECB ready to give a lot of the interest back in certain circumstances? No, the loans are about protecting the European financial system from contagion, which would have been catastrophic six or seven years ago and still poses the risk of unpleasant surprises. If the European banks had been left to fend for themselves the entire economic edifice would probably have gone up in flames. So there were very good reasons for taking over the debt.
I wonder how much debt the EU would have been willing to write off if Greece had gone back to the drachma. You'll recall that there was a promise in 2012 to get round to dealing with sustainability and absolutely nothing was ever done about that. Greece would have gone to the drachma on a promise of looking at debt write-offs, but if Schwaeble went to his electorate to say that Germany had to forgive 30bn euros just to get Greece back to where it was before the drachma depreciated, plus another 15 billion to ensure sustainability, plus a generous social support package to keep the people going .... well, I don't think he'd survive the political fallout.
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Interesting:
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/21/tsipras-allegedly-asked-russia-for-10-bln-to-print-drachmas/ (http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/21/tsipras-allegedly-asked-russia-for-10-bln-to-print-drachmas/)
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Greece would have gone to the drachma on a promise of looking at debt write-offs, but if Schwaeble went to his electorate to say that Germany had to forgive 30bn euros just to get Greece back to where it was before the drachma depreciated, plus another 15 billion to ensure sustainability, plus a generous social support package to keep the people going .... well, I don't think he'd survive the political fallout.
actually he would, which is why he proposed a "temporary" stepping out of the euro for 5 years. It would allow for writing off (some) debt, adding an aid package and devaluing the drachme to make greece more attractive for investors. a debt write off would obviously be done in stages, defer current payments and then write off debt when you see greece implementing reforms successfully. but at least with the drachme a debt write off is legally possible, with the euro it isnīt.
but greece and especially the US have attacked him and Germany as if he had suggested that greece should leave Europe, which is nonsense of course. The NYT had all kinds of anti German bashing, bringing the war back up, like ww2 happened yesterday...just totally silly. and of course people here noticed how quickly we are all being branded as *. The blackmail might have worked on our parents generation, but me and those younger than me, it really is over. The US lost a lot of reputation, they should definetly stay out of european internal affairs.
Other european countries are upset that the US is only talking to Germany, as if Germany owns all of Europe.
Europe is discussing it all for the third time, it is not a new problem. Might look very confusing from overseas, but europe is not Germany and the euro is only one part of europe. so many countries are part of the eu which are doing well with their own currency.
Merkel and Schäuble have full support here, if anything the latest developments have strengthened their positions, especially Schäuble.
varoufakis said today that he was preparing a new currency for greece which would have been linked to the euro at a fixed lower value. but for whatever reason tsirpas didnīt want it and V left.
doesnīt stop him from attacking Germany and claiming they tried to push greece out of the euro,even though he himself seems to believe it would have been the best decision. the guy is just weird, but he seems to be popular.
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The strength of Europe has always been the diversity, the different successful paths explored by different nations which would serve as an example to other nations to improve themselves.
Looking at the history of Europe we can find in each century a different nation pushing the continent forward, and that was what put us in the vanguard of so many things. Many bad things have happened, but the positive ones are HUGE, from technological advances to the humanitarian concepts.
This monolithic, centralized, bureaucratic, opaque and anti-democratic organization that the EU has become is killing all of this and that is the reason why we are falling behind.
yes and yes !
the EU is killing our core identity and our soul.
europe has NEVER been united into a monolithic bloc in the last 3000 yrs and for very good reasons.
what we're witnessing now is a horrible social engineering experiment on our skin and of course it's miserably failing.
you just can't turn greece or poland into germany or viceversa, no matter what the eurocrats smoked, it's just not that easy to turn us into a bunch of zombies and drones.
the only way to make permanent changes is to give real benefits, not to make our life worse than before.
an alliance of small states can only work if everyone has something to gain, now instead everyone is losing and told to shut the F up.
Sorry, but that is just too funny. The EU is not trying to turn any country into Germany. It tries or wants to make things better and easier
[url]http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html[/url] ([url]http://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html[/url])
Lets not forget, all countries using the Euro agreed to the terms to join. No one was forced into joining. Its still a democracy.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_related_to_the_European_Union#Euro[/url]) *)
you DID forget though that GOVERNMENTS ONLY agreed to join the Euro: not a single EMU member country asked the electorate, only the latter would be fit for a "democracy" in my book!
What a pathetic understanding of "democracy". I bet almost losing Freedom of Panorama courtesy to your great EU bureaucrats out there would also be part of that marvellously "democratic" C'est la vie we would have had to take?
"The EU (...) make(s) things better and easier" -- as in outlawing Open Source software (we fought against this in 2005 and won), or as in forcing a Monsanto-style Seed Cartel down our throats outlawing organic home-growing in one's backyard (we fought against this last year and won, for the time being at least -- until that "democratic EU" forces us into CETA and TTIP the terms of which are negotiated over the electorates' heads, secretly and fully "democratically" behind closed doors), or as in now building that "European Army" I am sure every good anti-war activist plus collectivist world-improver really wants, or as in the ongoing "Digital-Goods VAT" mess (http://euvataction.org/campaign-aims/) that's killing Freelance and Arts Businesses all over the place (people are hurting left, right, and centre so I believe it is very cruel to tell Eurocrats are here to make things "better and easier")! Some photographer you are, the business part inseparably belongs to being one.
Seriously, what have you been smoking, and how deep asleep are you, indeed?! That "perfect world" you apparently (and, don't get me wrong, understandably) dream of is taken away and destroyed by your very heroes ALL THE TIME and, curiously, ON ANY OCCASION they bloody-can-find.
So experience and real-life facts clearly tell us time and again we should not support, let alone pay for, that kind of "Europe" -- not on the 800th anniversary of Magna Charta at that. Let 's not forget that one either ;)
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*) **do note** that the Treaty of Maastricht is on creating an overall "Union" (that no one in their right mind could want), not primarily some currency with an outrageingly stupid name. You may also be surprised to learn that each and every single one asked if they wanted the Euro turned it down (even collectivist, super-progressive Sweden rejected the thing)...
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